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Old 11-27-2017, 10:45 PM   #21
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Just a couple weeks ago, I went into a Sears in Arizona and exchanged a 7/16” Craftsman socket that had cracked. No question, no problems.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:08 PM   #22
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I don't know why it might be important to "recover" jobs that have been lost through competition. We have a society that bases it's success on competition. We are successful because we are inventive, can move quickly and we are creative. Recovering what is lost, by using laws or force of some kind, is artificial success that strives simply to keep an outdated idea alive for some special interest.

Every country knows how to build a wrench. We have wrench makers that are out of work. They are out of work because we can't compete effectively in the wrench business. Others do it cheaper than we are willing to do it for. So, do we force everyone here to buy our wrenches? Or do we move on and use our steel for some other purpose that others can't do? Some other purpose that wrench makers can perform, but other countries don't yet know how to do?

Simply bringing more steel production back here, doesn't mean the economics of it will produce anything useful. It's the profit from the steel that is interesting to business.

Bottom line is do we try to compete more effectively, or do we try to stop others from competing through market controls? Having to use protectionist measures is sort of an admission that the wrench business is no longer at the forefront of creativity and is simply being used to protect workers that don't want to re-train or compete in another field.

Manufacturing is business. Business exists, mostly, to make money. Typical business interests are not concerned with the romance of returning the wrench business to the US. We can get wrenches easily from all over the world, so let's use our expertise to make money with steel in some other way that is less competitive and easier. Business will go where opportunity is. Jobs will follow. Trying to rebuild an industry that was lost, because we could no longer compete, isn't necessarily interesting.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:44 PM   #23
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I don't know why it might be important to "recover" jobs that have been lost through competition. We have a society that bases it's success on competition. We are successful because we are inventive, can move quickly and we are creative. Recovering what is lost, by using laws or force of some kind, is artificial success that strives simply to keep an outdated idea alive for some special interest.

Every country knows how to build a wrench. We have wrench makers that are out of work. They are out of work because we can't compete effectively in the wrench business. Others do it cheaper than we are willing to do it for. So, do we force everyone here to buy our wrenches? Or do we move on and use our steel for some other purpose that others can't do? Some other purpose that wrench makers can perform, but other countries don't yet know how to do?

Simply bringing more steel production back here, doesn't mean the economics of it will produce anything useful. It's the profit from the steel that is interesting to business.

Bottom line is do we try to compete more effectively, or do we try to stop others from competing through market controls? Having to use protectionist measures is sort of an admission that the wrench business is no longer at the forefront of creativity and is simply being used to protect workers that don't want to re-train or compete in another field.

Manufacturing is business. Business exists, mostly, to make money. Typical business interests are not concerned with the romance of returning the wrench business to the US. We can get wrenches easily from all over the world, so let's use our expertise to make money with steel in some other way that is less competitive and easier. Business will go where opportunity is. Jobs will follow. Trying to rebuild an industry that was lost, because we could no longer compete, isn't necessarily interesting.
Respectfully and with comprehension...
I just started to write a response to this then erased it.
The sadness of the futility of that endeavor washed over me as I reflected over the years of watching the lights slowly go out in that "shining city upon the hill" and not at the hand of any external threat.
Good night...
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:58 PM   #24
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Not exactly a tool ( although some hunters might consider it such ) but i dearly love the Henry rifle ad on t v " made in America , or not made at all ". At least one manufacturer is apparently succeeding with that plan. Hopefully others can follow suit. Lee
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Old 11-28-2017, 06:28 AM   #25
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Unlike another member, I do feel sorry for Sears......and many other brick and mortar retailers who are being driven out of business by online sales. That’s not to exonerate bad business practices, but I, for one, often like to pick up an item and examine its quality and usefulness before purchasing. And I sometimes need an item right now, not overnight or in several days. If things keep going the way they are, we will have very few offline retailers left. IMO, I am a fan of companies who operate in both environments, mail order AS WELL AS brick and mortar.
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Old 11-28-2017, 06:55 AM   #26
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Raz, I recently exchanged a stripped 1/4” drive Craftsman ratchet for a replacement at the scaled down Sears store here. Surprisingly, the one I received was of much better quality than the broken tool. I don’t have much hope that this will be a long term option though.
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Just a couple weeks ago, I went into a Sears in Arizona and exchanged a 7/16” Craftsman socket that had cracked. No question, no problems.
Thank you for answering my question. Most seem to have missed it. Raz
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Old 11-28-2017, 07:07 AM   #27
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I don't know why it might be important to "recover" jobs that have been lost through competition. We have a society that bases it's success on competition. We are successful because we are inventive, can move quickly and we are creative. Recovering what is lost, by using laws or force of some kind, is artificial success that strives simply to keep an outdated idea alive for some special interest.

Every country knows how to build a wrench. We have wrench makers that are out of work. They are out of work because we can't compete effectively in the wrench business. Others do it cheaper than we are willing to do it for. So, do we force everyone here to buy our wrenches? Or do we move on and use our steel for some other purpose that others can't do? Some other purpose that wrench makers can perform, but other countries don't yet know how to do?

Simply bringing more steel production back here, doesn't mean the economics of it will produce anything useful. It's the profit from the steel that is interesting to business.

Bottom line is do we try to compete more effectively, or do we try to stop others from competing through market controls? Having to use protectionist measures is sort of an admission that the wrench business is no longer at the forefront of creativity and is simply being used to protect workers that don't want to re-train or compete in another field.

Manufacturing is business. Business exists, mostly, to make money. Typical business interests are not concerned with the romance of returning the wrench business to the US. We can get wrenches easily from all over the world, so let's use our expertise to make money with steel in some other way that is less competitive and easier. Business will go where opportunity is. Jobs will follow. Trying to rebuild an industry that was lost, because we could no longer compete, isn't necessarily interesting.
Too true. Now if we can only beat down our standard of living to that of Viet Nam or Mexico or China we can compete on the world stage. Steve Jobs said, "America no longer has the skills to build an iPhone, at any price." Empires rise and empires fall. Some seemingly commit suicide as Americans buy from anywhere if the price is right. Corporate America laughs all the way to the bank, have you seen their profits of late? We hate our unions, but love our Chinese imports. Many seniors hate socialism, but love medicare and social security. Go figure. No doubt our labor intensive FGRV's will begin to come from overseas any day now.
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Old 11-28-2017, 07:32 AM   #28
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i have never been a wrench turner but on occasion I need some things so I go to Harbor Freight remember I use them very seldom. I have never had one break or anything.

For the next step up yes if I was that guy Craftsman and their lifetime warranty is appealing then you have the pro so he wants snapon but many mechanics have quit using them due to their high cost!

I was just at a walmarts Friday, their county s unemployment is at 2% they also have a huge gm plant there and its adding on. No one can get any reliable help to work anywhere we ate dinner at a steakandshake it was a disaster! No help people not showing up no phone calls this is what we have today. I also can say if waitresses study their craft and work they can make 100.00 a day in tips!! not a bad day to me for folks with hardly an education!

I doubt seriously if these plants were brought back if we could come up with the skilled workers to make the stuff or even a reliable staff! The countries without all the welfare and schemes to keep workers at home has spoiled our work ethic!!
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:03 AM   #29
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i have never been a wrench turner but on occasion I need some things so I go to Harbor Freight remember I use them very seldom...
That, perhaps, explains the decline of tool-making. Building and fixing things has increasingly fallen to an ever-shrinking class of professional mechanics. Most of us, myself included, make only occasional, light use of our tools. I have some good ones left from the days when I did all the work on an air-cooled VW myself, but most are lesser additions.

Of course, there are plenty of people unable to afford the services of professionals. My wood-cutter is one. It never ceases to amaze me how he is able to keep his wood truck going. A wheel fell off as he pulled into the driveway once when the three remaining studs snapped (loaded well past its payload, I'm sure). His wife took him home to grab a few tools and spare studs he had laying around, and he had the thing going again in about an hour. There was nothing high-end about the tools he used, either. Git 'er done... He, and people like him, will fare the best when our over-specialized, service-driven economy implodes.

At least my Scamp is simple enough to work on myself: the VW Beetle of RV's!
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:12 AM   #30
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jon must be the same guy I had helping me he was so broke he carried a 5 gal can of gas with him he was always running on fumes I never understood him.

once he had a flat tire I said to myself oh oh a trip to the tire shop on my dime. Nope! He had a tire changer on his truck with all the fixens about 30 mins later he was all fixed and ready to go to work.

some people really amaze me!!

bob
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:25 AM   #31
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As one who has used tools for work, for the last 40 years of my life, Craftsman tools were not the ones to buy. They were good though for homeowner use. Sure, they had a fantastic warranty, but having to rely on my tools I was more concerned with performance and longevity, than I was warranty. One example of this is socket wrenches, something that for years I used on a regular basis. I had a set of Snap-On and some co-workers had Craftsman, bought for the price mostly. At least once a year they were without the ratchet for a while, as they needed to get it in for servicing or replacement, and had to borrow mine often.

As well, they most Craftsman tools were not ergonomically designed, and were not as nice to use as some of the more expensive ones like Milwaukee or Bosch. When using a power tool for many hours a day, ergonomics and the lessening of fatigue are important factors in power tool choice.

I have to chuckle at everyone complaining of the manufacturing leaving the US that is now of lesser quality, when in fact the reason it left in the first place is people were mostly no longer willing to pay the money it cost to produce quality in the US. China (and many other Asian countries) have every bit of the capacity to create the quality produced around the world, and in some cases do, however they build for the demand, and most of the demand is for cheaper products, something desired in price and a resultant in quality. You get what you pay for.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:41 AM   #32
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sort of funy

I was in home depot one time a carpenter was returning the big name battery drill for the 3rd time they wouldn't hold up! DeWalt comes to mind!

I use Ryobi I have dropped them used them as hammers put up several sheet metal buildings using the Ryobi never a problem.

I have bought 3 or 4 just the drill parts and have 4 batteries all used and never a time they don't work as advertised. One I bought used and it must have been used in the sheet rock side of things it looked a mess and was 1/2 worn out I still cant finish it off!

saying this there is a market for both sides of tool work!

bob
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:09 AM   #33
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Jim hit the nail on the head, and if it were the only nail, he could probably get away with a cheap hammer!
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:17 AM   #34
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Craftsman being sold to Stanley is a good thing, as Stanley will be around long after Sears is gone.

The challenge for Stanley is what to do with the brand. My hope is they use the still recognized brand name to create a premium line of tools, made in USA. Something to be between the current imported tool quality and a top tier USA brand.

Jim is right, as long as american consumers buy mainly on price, and ignore C.O.O., this will continue. I find even myself I am guilty of this. I was looking for a nice set of metric ratcheting wrenches. I checked Snap On first, $313.... Then I checked Gearwrench (made in China), on sale, $29.... I would pay $75 for a nice USA set, but $313? No.
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:17 AM   #35
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Jim hit the nail on the head, and if it were the only nail, he could probably get away with a cheap hammer!
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:49 AM   #36
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313.00 for a set for once in awhile use crazy! But I have seen guys do it use them once put them away never to be used again!

bob
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:41 AM   #37
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There will always be someone willing to go a bit cheaper on the price of some popular widget. Always. That is the system we set up and all benefit from. The good side of it is we can so easily and cheaply get those wrenches and we can select the ones we want among so many choices.

Since so many products are made in China, it becomes very easy to blame China for the price and for the quality, or lack of quality. But remember, those wrenches were designed and ordered by US manufacturers to sell here under an old name we all used to trust. Factories are standing by overseas, with very cheap and willing labor, to build the toasters, wrenches and myriad of other things, exactly as designed.

Blame the designer who calls out the low tolerances and low grade heat treat, in order to knock a few pennies off the already low manufacturing price in order to compete here. But why blame China for building the part to spec, that they contracted to do?

From a user point of view, it's buyer beware and low pride of ownership with poor quality. From a seller point of view, it's dog eat dog competition and trying to stay alive in a cutthroat world.

That's why, as a business, it's better to move to a field that is newer and less understood. When deciding what field, look around. Anybody can make a wrench, not a good choice to compete in. Nobody wants wooden wagon wheels anymore, not a good choice to compete in. Many people do, or soon will, want a smart thermostat, a self driving car, or a robot.

People that lost their jobs building wrenches and have mechanical skills going to waste, can be put to work building robots or self driving cars, but change is uncomfortable, causes anger and blame, disrupts lives.

Just when you think you can count on some US institution, like Harley Davidson or Sears, to always be there, you discover you can't. They have to compete in that dog eat dog world too, and the outcome is often ugly.

Now, we want the cheapest possible ratchet from Sears, who happens to be going out of business. And we want to get a new free one conveniently if it breaks, forever. And we want it to be the best working one on the planet that fits our hand better than anything else. And we want it made in the good old USA by workers that make enough money to support a family, buy a house and buy a new Chevy every 3.5 years. And if we can't get all of that we'll be mad. We'll be angry at China and blame them.

And the beat goes on...........

I wish Sears was still a solid player, but their outright dishonesty and ripoff of their customers popped the bubble for me. Now, I would never buy a battery from them at any price, or get my car fixed there for any reason. It's too bad they chose the path they did.
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:51 AM   #38
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There will always be someone willing to go a bit cheaper on the price of some popular widget. Always. That is the system we set up and all benefit from. The good side of it is we can so easily and cheaply get those wrenches and we can select the ones we want among so many choices.

Since so many products are made in China, it becomes very easy to blame China for the price and for the quality, or lack of quality. But remember, those wrenches were designed and ordered by US manufacturers to sell here under an old name we all used to trust. Factories are standing by overseas, with very cheap and willing labor, to build the toasters, wrenches and myriad of other things, exactly as designed.

Blame the designer who calls out the low tolerances and low grade heat treat, in order to knock a few pennies off the already low manufacturing price in order to compete here. But why blame China for building the part to spec, that they contracted to do?

From a user point of view, it's buyer beware and low pride of ownership with poor quality. From a seller point of view, it's dog eat dog competition and trying to stay alive in a cutthroat world.

That's why, as a business, it's better to move to a field that is newer and less understood. When deciding what field, look around. Anybody can make a wrench, not a good choice to compete in. Nobody wants wooden wagon wheels anymore, not a good choice to compete in. Many people do, or soon will, want a smart thermostat, a self driving car, or a robot.

People that lost their jobs building wrenches and have mechanical skills going to waste, can be put to work building robots or self driving cars, but change is uncomfortable, causes anger and blame, disrupts lives.

Just when you think you can count on some US institution, like Harley Davidson or Sears, to always be there, you discover you can't. They have to compete in that dog eat dog world too, and the outcome is often ugly.

Now, we want the cheapest possible ratchet from Sears, who happens to be going out of business. And we want to get a new free one conveniently if it breaks, forever. And we want it to be the best working one on the planet that fits our hand better than anything else. And we want it made in the good old USA by workers that make enough money to support a family, buy a house and buy a new Chevy every 3.5 years. And if we can't get all of that we'll be mad. We'll be angry at China and blame them.

And the beat goes on...........
No, just a new Ford every 12 years!
You do seem to have it all figured out, congratulations!
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:00 AM   #39
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Floyd,

It's just my humble opinion. But it is based on being in business for 40 years and working in the field all that time. Please correct me where I've misjudged the situation.
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Old 11-28-2017, 11:29 AM   #40
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That, perhaps, explains the decline of tool-making. Building and fixing things has increasingly fallen to an ever-shrinking class of professional mechanics. Most of us, myself included, make only occasional, light use of our tools. I have some good ones left from the days when I did all the work on an air-cooled VW myself, but most are lesser additions.

Of course, there are plenty of people unable to afford the services of professionals. My wood-cutter is one. It never ceases to amaze me how he is able to keep his wood truck going. A wheel fell off as he pulled into the driveway once when the three remaining studs snapped (loaded well past its payload, I'm sure). His wife took him home to grab a few tools and spare studs he had laying around, and he had the thing going again in about an hour. There was nothing high-end about the tools he used, either. Git 'er done... He, and people like him, will fare the best when our over-specialized, service-driven economy implodes.

At least my Scamp is simple enough to work on myself: the VW Beetle of RV's!
Well, now that Raz's original question has been addressed, it's open season on digressions!

Jon's woodcutter story reminds me of the Grapes of Wrath when Tom Joad changed out a connecting rod bearing with a monkey wrench and pliers while wistfully remarking that he wished he had a crescent wrench! Driven by economic desperation and facilitated by the relative simplicity of the vehicle, he managed to make the repair so the family could move on.

I likewise acquired my "good" tools when I was maintaining older vehicles, including everything from a '65 International pickup and '67 Travelall to more air-cooled VWs than I care to admit, along with a number of other domestic and foreign nameplates. Fast forward to 1991 when I purchased my first new car from a friend at a dealership; last-year's 1990-model VW Fox. "It was intended to provide Volkswagen dealers with a competitor to the then very successful Hyundai Excel and Yugo low-price cars." A competitor to the Yugo; that must be some kind of sweet car!

However, I was suddenly freed from changing points every 3,000 miles, bushing worn carburetor-shaft bores, jiggering the springs on centrifugal advance mechanisms, and a host of other mechanical "necessities" which attended ownership of the older generations of vehicles. Although I daily bless the folks who restore and maintain old cars, boats, planes and trains, my personal interest is more focused on simply being able to turn the key and depart on my journey. I quickly became a convert to the newer technology, simultaneously outsourcing most of my maintenance and repairs to professional mechanics. While this led to some frustrations and mechanic-shopping, I basically got out of the habit of taking care of our vehicles.

Then, about ten years ago when my 2002 AWD Passat Wagon developed a lean-run condition that a mechanic could not trace, I joined a Passat forum, purchased a basic code-reader and a Bentley manual, and assiduously researched the symptoms and error codes. Following several days of careful preparation, I took the singularly audacious step of opening the hood and removing the plastic engine cover!

Well, within five minutes I found the corrugated polyethylene breather hose which had been broken and patched with electrical tape (!) by a certain VW stealership two years previous. I subsequently rigged a "quality" repair which has lasted these same ten years, as the daughter now owns that car.

Since that time I have returned to the role of participating in and overseeing maintenance and repairs. I perform and log basic maintenances and repairs, and participate in evaluating how to approach more complex repairs. I also continue to perform quality control on the mechanics. A number of mechanics failed these evaluations, such as when they would only bleed two brakes. The blessing is that I have thereby gratefully found the ones who amply reward the trust I place in them.

The progress in design and manufacturing has been accompanied by much greater complexity. I think this complexity has had a role in reducing so much of the home “can-do” (must do?) approaches which prevailed over the decades. For my part, I have found a middle-ground role where I am an active participant, a member of the team if you will. I also see the son-in-law doing the same thing, prompted in part by the financial realities which face the younger generation. So, maybe all hope is not lost.
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