Escape 21 vs? - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 03-02-2020, 04:02 PM   #21
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Name: Jon
Trailer: Bigfoot
California
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
Considering what my 401K lost last week , I would have been better off buying a 25 ft Bigfoot trailer , at least I would have something to show for my money

Last year at this time I was thinking about taking a loan for a travel trailer. Instead, I sold a bunch of stock and bought a 1 year old used Bigfoot 21RB for $38k cash.


This year I'm thinking that wasn't the worst decision I've ever made.
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Old 03-02-2020, 06:20 PM   #22
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Name: Elliott
Trailer: Bigfoot
Everywhere
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Yes, for sure Oliver is more in line with what I'm looking for. 4 season is a pretty big deal in the summer and winter for us, and just a bit higher end finishing, appliances, solar panels, etc.
I love the idea of long-lasting and waterproof fiberglass one-piece construction though, just doesn't seem to be a ton in that market. I'll see if I can look at an Oliver.
Thanks!
In terms of 4-season... after using an Escape 19 through a couple winters and reading the Oliver forums.. I think I'd actually give an Escape with all the thermal options the edge in terms of winter use. The Escape has a little less insulation (but really not much; probably more on the bottom) but the Oliver's pipes are in the middle of the conditioned space and not fully "inside", which can cause some problems when it gets well below freezing. Bigfoot should be the best of the three for winter, though by a smaller margin than I'd expected judging by my experiences with a 25RQ so far.

I know Escape's marketed more as "3-season" or "3.5-season" vs "4-season" for the Oliver, but winter in Chilliwack might be a bit harsher than Tennessee
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Old 03-02-2020, 07:17 PM   #23
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Trailer: Oliver Elite II
Boerne, Texas
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I don’t know how you judge who has the edge on winter camping. I’m sure Bigfoot does very well in cold weather and I think Escape also does well. Are they better than an Oliver? I don’t know. This January we camped outside of Durango with lows in the low teens. No problem. We camped at Pinnacles NP a year ago, lows in the teens. We just camped at Aguirre Spring, NM also in the teens. No problem. Olivers, like Bigfoot and Escape do well in cold weather. Unless I camped in all three I wouldn’t state that one was better than another.
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Old 03-02-2020, 07:32 PM   #24
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Name: Jon
Trailer: Bigfoot
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Originally Posted by Carol and Mike View Post
I donít know how you judge who has the edge on winter camping. Iím sure Bigfoot does very well in cold weather and I think Escape also does well. Are they better than an Oliver? I donít know. This January we camped outside of Durango with lows in the low teens. No problem. We camped at Pinnacles NP a year ago, lows in the teens. We just camped at Aguirre Spring, NM also in the teens. No problem. Olivers, like Bigfoot and Escape do well in cold weather. Unless I camped in all three I wouldnít state that one was better than another.

Only one way to find out... I smell a challenge. The "who can take the cold best" challenge!



Not me though.. I'm out. My Bigfoot is at the repair place for the moment. The heat is out!
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Old 03-02-2020, 07:34 PM   #25
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Obviously it's hard to be 100% sure without extensive side-by-side testing, but Oliver forums had a lot of reports of pipes between the two hulls freezing up below 20F and my Escape was OK down to as low as 4F. The dump valves are more protected on Olivers, but IMO that's easier to manage than freshwater pipes since you can pour a bit of antifreeze in after you dump. The Escape might burn a bit more propane than the Oliver relative to the size, but I'd bet not by much and the furnace certainly has no trouble keeping up. The weak point on the Oliver is just the freshwater pipe location: it's between the two layers of insulation, rather than fully "inside".

The Bigfoot definitely has more insulation than either on paper, and it has fewer issues with wall condensation than the Escape did, but it's not as airtight (it's not drafty, but the Escape is tight enough to require something opened for make-up air if the vent runs) and the windows and window sills seem to let more heat in/out compared to the Escape.

It's hard to get exact numbers without a controlled environment, but as far as I can tell the Bigfoot requires about 30-40% more heat than the Escape for a given temperature delta despite having a 60-70% larger surface area. A little disappointing in a way since on paper it should require less heat even with the larger surface area, but it's still more heat-efficient relative to the size.
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Old 03-02-2020, 07:39 PM   #26
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Name: Steve
Trailer: Currently Shopping
NW Wisconsin
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We’ve camped in our Casita SD at -17 below F
Still doesn’t make it a four or even a 3 season trailer !!

You can live in a cardboard box at 30 below zero if you pump enough heat into it but it still doesn’t make it a house
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Old 03-02-2020, 07:49 PM   #27
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Name: Elliott
Trailer: Bigfoot
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I would absolutely *love* a chance to do something like put a bunch of trailers in a large freezer and compare them to get actual winter performance. Lowest exterior temperature before a pipe freezes, and BTU or Watt input to maintain 70F inside with 20F outside. So many of them give an R-value for the walls and/or ceiling but have big air gaps, exposed pipes, pipes in poorly-insulated corners, or metal framing that acts as a thermal bridge.
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Old 03-03-2020, 08:00 AM   #28
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Trailer: Oliver Elite II
Boerne, Texas
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Originally Posted by Defenestrator View Post
Obviously it's hard to be 100% sure without extensive side-by-side testing, but Oliver forums had a lot of reports of pipes between the two hulls freezing up below 20F and my Escape was OK down to as low as 4F. The dump valves are more protected on Olivers, but IMO that's easier to manage than freshwater pipes since you can pour a bit of antifreeze in after you dump. The Escape might burn a bit more propane than the Oliver relative to the size, but I'd bet not by much and the furnace certainly has no trouble keeping up. The weak point on the Oliver is just the freshwater pipe location: it's between the two layers of insulation, rather than fully "inside".
There are not ďa lot of reports of pipes freezingĒ on the Oliver forum. Iím a moderator and am on the forum everyday. There was some discussion about preventing the pipes from freezing while in transit from northern cold to southern warm, but that is different from camping in the cold. One owner left his Ollie stored in below freezing weather without winterizing and the outside shower froze. Again, different than camping. Based on my personal experience and experience of many owners I know, Olivers do well camping in cold weather, as Iím sure Bigfoot and Escape do.
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:08 AM   #29
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Name: RogerDat
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Interesting discussion. Be nice keep it on the campers, not personal. Everyone should be about trying to help people consider how one of these campers would fit their needs. As most of the posts are.

Myself I avoid all this freezing pipes and such by just going with a lean-to tarp or a tent if it's really cold. Only problem in I'm running out of people willing to go with me. Dear wife was never that crazy and the rest of the family has a been there, done that sort of perspective. Stay dry, stay warm. Don't drink a lot of fluids before bed because middle of the night leaving the sleeping bag is unpleasant. But man the stars are something else if you do.

My scamp should be fine. Don't use the sink that much anyway. Use an insulated water jug to keep water warm. Should work, might want to try it at home first. Hmmm I gots me an idea!
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:09 AM   #30
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Trailer: Was A-Liner now 13f Scamp
Missouri
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back in the game

Well Steve record day for Wallstreet. I am sure you 401k has bounced back then of course we have the virus to work out!

bob

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Considering what my 401K lost last week , I would have been better off buying a 25 ft Bigfoot trailer , at least I would have something to show for my money
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:13 AM   #31
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Name: bob
Trailer: Was A-Liner now 13f Scamp
Missouri
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rogerdat

Cold weather camping we put all our water in jugs. we get in the scamper at night its pretty cold.

I haven't tried ultra cold weather camping yet. Last boondocking trip sure saw lots of people sleeping in cars this go around! Lot of people rigging up their minivans for camping. I like it!

I am thinking 14 or 18d tops so far!

bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat View Post
Interesting discussion. Be nice keep it on the campers, not personal. Everyone should be about trying to help people consider how one of these campers would fit their needs. As most of the posts are.

Myself I avoid all this freezing pipes and such by just going with a lean-to tarp or a tent if it's really cold. Only problem in I'm running out of people willing to go with me. Dear wife was never that crazy and the rest of the family has a been there, done that sort of perspective. Stay dry, stay warm. Don't drink a lot of fluids before bed because middle of the night leaving the sleeping bag is unpleasant. But man the stars are something else if you do.

My scamp should be fine. Don't use the sink that much anyway. Use an insulated water jug to keep water warm. Should work, might want to try it at home first. Hmmm I gots me an idea!
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:39 AM   #32
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Name: Steve
Trailer: Currently Shopping
NW Wisconsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat View Post
Interesting discussion. Be nice keep it on the campers, not personal. Everyone should be about trying to help people consider how one of these campers would fit their needs. As most of the posts are.

Myself I avoid all this freezing pipes and such by just going with a lean-to tarp or a tent if it's really cold. Only problem in I'm running out of people willing to go with me. Dear wife was never that crazy and the rest of the family has a been there, done that sort of perspective. Stay dry, stay warm. Don't drink a lot of fluids before bed because middle of the night leaving the sleeping bag is unpleasant. But man the stars are something else if you do.

My scamp should be fine. Don't use the sink that much anyway. Use an insulated water jug to keep water warm. Should work, might want to try it at home first. Hmmm I gots me an idea!
THANK YOU !!
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Old 03-03-2020, 01:50 PM   #33
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Name: Perry
Trailer: 2018 Escape 5.0
Lanesboro, Minnesota, between Whalan and Fountain
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Our Escape is basically a Summer time trailer and our Summer is only about 4 months long at the best . Makes it hard to get the most out of your investment.
Our Escape is definitely a three season camper and have woke in the morning numerous times with snow on the ground. I believe literally everyone with an Escape will dispute your statement, "basically a Summer time trailer and our Summer is only about 4 months long at the best ."

We have a furnace and it works quite well down to slightly above 10 degrees. We do crack the ceiling vent slightly, 1/2", on cold nights to alleviate condensation. So far we've easily seen 20 or more Escapes in Arizona and Nevada since we arrived, and have had many, many nights below 35 degrees and 10 or more below freezing.

Full Disclosure: in the first 60 days the sail switch failed four times. We are currently at night 251 and the sail switch hasn't failed since. Probably 2/3 of our stays are without electricity.

Enjoy,

Perry
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Old 03-03-2020, 02:28 PM   #34
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Trailer: Casita SD
Tennessee
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We are currently at night 251....
I've never thought to keep track of how many nights I spend in the trailer. Is this something I should be doing? If so, how do most of you record it?
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Old 03-03-2020, 02:37 PM   #35
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Trailer: Oliver Elite II
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I've never thought to keep track of how many nights I spend in the trailer. Is this something I should be doing? If so, how do most of you record it?
I keep a simple spreadsheet of where we camp, how long and mileage. I like to keep track of trailer mileage for maintenance planning. I like to keep track of where/when we camp because I canít remember from year to year when and where we were someplace!
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Old 03-03-2020, 07:38 PM   #36
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Name: Perry
Trailer: 2018 Escape 5.0
Lanesboro, Minnesota, between Whalan and Fountain
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I've never thought to keep track of how many nights I spend in the trailer. Is this something I should be doing? If so, how do most of you record it?
I'm a tech guy and started teaching VisiCalc in 1981 and finished teaching Google Sheets in 2016.

I keep a Google Sheet that has our plans for each trip, and are modified as we change where we camp. Our friends and children have a link to the sheet so they can see where we've been and where we're going. It was easy to add a column to keep track of the nights we've been in the camper on the road. Works for us!

Enjoy,

Perry
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Old 03-03-2020, 07:57 PM   #37
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Trailer: Casita SD
Tennessee
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Cool ideas! Scratching a mark on the wall like the prisoners in old movies would be more my speed
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:44 PM   #38
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Name: Fredrick
Trailer: Escape 21C
Tennessee
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Talking vs?

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If by "nicer" you mean "more modern," I think Oliver is your only option. The build quality inside Escapes is exceptional but yes, the wood cabinets and 90s-era fabric patterns give it a certain rustic look. The Oliver Elite II is substantially more expensive than an Escape 21
Toured the Ollie plant a couple yrs ago & liked the 23'....darn nice 4 season trailer, but uuuge expense. Our needs were a bit less, considering we do not camp in winter since we spend winters in FL.
So..we tried a 17 Casita "Indy" and liked it...but a buncha grandkids comming on forced us to begin looking again for more room!..we sold the Casita last yr AND then ordered an Escape 21.
WE went for the maple interior and added some custom cabinetry which Escape is known for, and picked out our own personal fabric choices and a larger sink...
you can see it on "Visual Escape"/Its Friday 2017 and beyond.. thread on the Escape forum . Our pix are at pg 129
Escape has been great in all our personal requests for 'special layouts', wood, vents, extra storage access hatches, etc etc. and we spent about 1/2 the cost of that Ollie...plus we get to spend weeks 'camping our way back' from Canada this Spring. Can't wait.
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Old 03-05-2020, 04:48 PM   #39
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Name: Bruce & Kathryn
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 RQ
North Carolina
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We loved our Ollie but our Bigfoot is much cozier in cold weather. Hardly any condensation in Bigfoot versus a fair amount in our Oliver. Bigfoot is better insulated. Our experience of two years in each, snow and sun.
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Old 03-05-2020, 07:14 PM   #40
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Name: Gnuu
Trailer: Sprinter
Virginia
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Carol & Mike,
You mentioned "There was some discussion about preventing the pipes from freezing while in transit from northern cold to southern warm, but that is different from camping in the cold. One owner left his Ollie stored in below freezing weather without winterizing and the outside shower froze." See the next quote by:

"Name: Bruce & Kathryn
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 RQ" who said
"We loved our Ollie but our Bigfoot is much cozier in cold weather. Hardly any condensation in Bigfoot versus a fair amount in our Oliver. Bigfoot is better insulated. Our experience of two years in each, snow and sun."

I asked the Oliver saleslady about adding additional insulation in the form of either 1 additional inch - R Value 3.9 or 1.69 inches - R Value 5.2. She checked and was told this was not possible. She was told that the Oliver had Reflectix on the inside of the outside hull and Reflectix on the outside of the inner hull. She was told that the reflectix plus the air gap between the hulls constituted the only insulation and that this totalled to R18.

Given that Reflectix is primarily a reflective of infrared and not a direct insulator, that R value for the air gap appears high. (This is based on discussions on insulating Sprinters and other Class B's on the Sprinter Forum and the Class B forums.) Do you know of any way (other then at construction time) to add insulation to the inside of the outer hull of an Oliver or is the air gap the only insulation possible? Is there no room between the hulls to add the 1.09 inch or 1.65 inch Thinsulate.

I read a blog by another Oliver owner who said that while it was a nice trailer, it did not have enough room for his particular form of travel and living. He said that his had only 0.5 inch of Thinsulate or R-2.

My wife is highly sensitive to cold and we would prefer not to run a heater between the hulls at all times that it is below freezing. Since the Oliver has solar, we would like to be able to leave the solar collecting solar power and heating itself during the winter so that we can leave the trailer for 8 hours a day and come back to a warm trailer in the afternoon. Otherwise, we would have to camp only where we have external power. We do not want to be periodically winterizing it. Do you have any suggestions on what to order to improve the insulation? We would be camping in it for between 2 and 7 months a year.

We were told by one Oliver owner that they have a below mattress item that prevents condensation in the mattress and that Oliver now sells the equivalent as a standard option. The condensation did not cause them other problems in their Oliver.

The Bigfoot seems a bit far from Virginia to be a good alternative. Tennessee is a lot closer.

The most insulated trailer seems to be the key to minimizing heating needs so this series of posts seems to be very useful in helping analyze?

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