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Old 12-30-2017, 09:00 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Franswa View Post
have a look at this video of how one brand of stick-builts.....are built...

sure gave me a good laugh...This is their "marketing" guy (???)
I wonder where he got the impression that prospective buyers are influenced/impressed by how FAST their future trailer is built....LOL



Efficiency and good throughput is not a bad thing. Devoted workers hustling throughout their day is every managers dream. Thatís a big part of how you make money and stay in business.

The main problem here is an obvious HUGE lack of Quality Control throughput their process.

Even inferior stick-built campers can last for years if they are held to high quality standards during manufacturing and properly maintained.

We owned a pop-up many years ago of the particular brand shown on your video, and it served us well with few problems. It was what we could afford, at the time and we enjoyed it while our kids were small.

As Iíve grown older, Iíve observed that long after the money youíve spent is a fading memory, youíre stuck with whatever it was you bought. Quality of materials and workmanship is paramount.

Having the largest rv on the block doesnít matter. Having a quality unit with the floor plan and features you need, is what really counts.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:46 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by k corbin View Post
Memorize this 25 millimeters is a very tiny bit less than 1 inch. It will get you by for mentally making those quick, rough, conversion calculations.

If the USA changed over to metrics it would be OK by me. It is only legacy items that one needs to measure that would create an issue but I already have that issue of figuring out what the size is in either system covered since I have the tools for converting the measurements back and forth.

I have digital calipers that at the press of a button will display the measurement in fractional inches, decimal inches or millimeters. I also have a tape ruler with inches on one side and metric on the other. I have need of these because I have customers from many different countries. If I am describing a product in printed literature I use dual dimensions. If I am showing the size of something with a ruler I use a ruler that has inches on one side and millimeters on the other side in the photo.

My cell phone, tablet and computer all have apps for converting various kinds of measurements from one measuring system to another. The apps get used a lot when shopping for various parts and supplies from the internet.

I can work in either system in my 3D CAD program that I design in or even go back and forth if needed.
If we all used the same system of weights and measure , you would not need 2 sided rulers or computer conversion programs or the rest of that BS . The USA has tried to get uniformity but other nations mainly due to political reasons and stubbornness have refused to follow our lead. To me a meter is what I use to test electricity, a gram is a type of Cracker and a newton is a type of cookie made in Massachusetts.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:13 AM   #243
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We have several members of this forum who are either skilled craftsmen or skilled tradesmen or both. Often that can mean evaluating a trailer build in terms of "how I would do it", vs what the most common practice is, or what the general industry norms are.

While I admire that impeccably high standard, it's not very realistic for an affordable trailer. That kind of quality would come at an exhorbitant price and would also mean a manufacturer would have to severely limit their production in order to meet it. Not to mention, finding workers who are capable of it. Skill does not come cheap.

Having said all that, I'll put the build quality of my trailer up against ANY Jayco, any day. It's not even close.


If a manufacturer focuses too much on economy, he risks lost sales in the long term and a wrecked reputation, which is hard to reclaim.

If he focuses too much on quality, he risks high manufacturing costs and a smaller market.

Most successful manufacturers try to find a balance, somewhere between the two extremes.

What is inexcusable, to me, is poor cosmetics in the final inspection. After all, if a potential customer can easily notice mismatched joints, poor caulking, etc., then he will become suspicious that there are other unseen problems. Rework for a manufacturer can be costly, but lost sales and a ruined reputation are worse!
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:29 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Mike in WIS View Post
What is inexcusable, to me, is poor cosmetics in the final inspection. After all, if a potential customer can easily notice mismatched joints, poor caulking, etc., then he will become suspicious that there are other unseen problems. Rework for a manufacturer can be costly, but lost sales and a ruined reputation are worse!
I agree with that Mike. Size seems to have alot to do with it though. The bigger a manufacturer gets, and the more emphasis is placed on units per day produced, some of that pride in workmanship is inevitably lost, unless there is a huge effort and expenditure in quality control.

American car manufacturers for example had to basically change the entire way they did business a few decades ago, in order to match the quality of foreign competitors. If you saw the typical domestic car on a dealer lot in 1973, it was not a pretty sight. The poor quality and bad fit and finish were readily apparent. The companies that survived eventually did match quality, and in some cases exceeded it, but not without tremendous costs (including in some cases government bailouts), an ongoing effort, and massive changes to the manufacturing process.

I recall when I was waiting for the delivery of my new F150 back in early 2015. It had been completed for several weeks but they would not ship it until it had undergone several QC inspections. It was a frustrating wait, but I did get a quality product and have had zero issues.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:45 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Franswa View Post
I posted that because I thought is was funny....specifically the speed at which these workers were expected to perform....I was horrified watching that frame flip...somebody could have got injured....bad!!!

I thought I was "preaching to the choir" and did not want to start the old stickbuilt vs FG debate....again

If I saw a housing development under construction where the workers were literally running between operations.....I would not be a buyer.

forget the brands, forget the types....what I thought was funny was that a marketing guy would make a video about how fast they build them and actually tout this as a positive...to the end user (?????)


cheers, F


I would hazard to guess that these workers were well aware that they were being videotaped and wanted to put on a good show for their bosses. I doubt if they actually run all day long lol

The safety issue is another matter, entirely. The frame should not be able to spin if workers cross into a dangerous zone.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:13 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by rbryan View Post

I recall when I was waiting for the delivery of my new F150 back in early 2015. It had been completed for several weeks but they would not ship it until it had undergone several QC inspections. It was a frustrating wait, but I did get a quality product and have had zero issues.
In your first sentence you state that you purchased a Ford F150.
In the last sentence you state that you did get a GUALITY product.
To me that would be an obvious assumption and possibly a redundant statement !
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:15 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
In your first sentence you state that you purchased a Ford F150.
In the last sentence you state that you did get a GUALITY product.
To me that would be an obvious assumption and possibly a redundant statement !
Yeah, it's a bad habit Steve. I sometimes use two words when one will do.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:36 AM   #248
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I agree with that Mike. Size seems to have alot to do with it though. The bigger a manufacturer gets, and the more emphasis is placed on units per day produced, some of that pride in workmanship is inevitably lost, unless there is a huge effort and expenditure in quality control.

American car manufacturers for example had to basically change the entire way they did business a few decades ago, in order to match the quality of foreign competitors. If you saw the typical domestic car on a dealer lot in 1973, it was not a pretty sight. The poor quality and bad fit and finish were readily apparent. The companies that survived eventually did match quality, and in some cases exceeded it, but not without tremendous costs (including in some cases government bailouts), an ongoing effort, and massive changes to the manufacturing process.

I recall when I was waiting for the delivery of my new F150 back in early 2015. It had been completed for several weeks but they would not ship it until it had undergone several QC inspections. It was a frustrating wait, but I did get a quality product and have had zero issues.

Yes, well said!
John Deming championed principles of statistical process control for manufacturing in Japan after WWII, and is credited as being the main reason for their industrial turnaround and success.

As a journeyman tool & die / mold maker for 27 yrs, I was given the opportunity to receive training and certification in those (SPC) methods. When companies employ those principles, their product quality should be consistent for a reasonable overall cost.
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:31 PM   #249
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GMC/Chevy still can't seem to figure out how to get their interiors and some exterior paneling to last. Everything seems to loosen and start falling off. That may rub some people wrong, but it's my experience. As far as domestic vehicles go, Chevy has always been my favorite, but I realized over the last decade or so that they aren't the best option...

That's one thing I always liked about Japanese vehicles. You could (and still can) buy one from the 70's and 80's and both the interior, exterior, and steering/suspension still felt tight. My 78 Toyota Chinook drove great. Rust was always the issue with those older ones.

Once the domestic factories starting learning from the Japanese system, quality got a lot better.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:24 AM   #250
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...
Once the domestic factories starting learning from the Japanese system, quality got a lot better.
Only after the Japanese started eating their lunch... And how did they learn how to do it? See:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...yXmgADPdIRnbHn
Deming was initially spurned by the too-proud-for-their-own-good US auto industry...
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:05 AM   #251
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Exactly right!
U.S. automakers didnít start employing the Ďcontinuous improvementí method of quality, esp. SPC, until about 1980.
The Ford company, in particular, got on the bandwagon and began sponsoring and teaching SPC worldwide. They are the ones who trained me.
All of the many many manufacturers who supply component parts to automobile manufacturers are required to supply them with statistical data.
Many other companies, like John Deere, for example, also require SPC data from their vendors.
It seems apparent that most, if not all, RV manufacturers are not using principles of total quality management.
Too bad. If they were, then their quality would be better and their costs would go down.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:59 AM   #252
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That's interesting info. I can see how his methods, along with, to generalize, the Japanese tendency towards quality and mastery would result in the excellent products they've put out for decades.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:38 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in WIS View Post
It seems apparent that most, if not all, RV manufacturers are not using principles of total quality management.
Too bad. If they were, then their quality would be better and their costs would go down.
Yes, but they're probably thinking, "why should we"? Sales are brisk and people keep buying our product.

The drive toward TQM and revisions in the manufacturing process was spurred by slumping sales. If RV sales plummeted because of low quality, perhaps you'd see a move toward these principles. But RVs are not a necessity item like a car or a home appliance. If everyone needed one, like they need their washers, their fridges and their cars and trucks, the industry would be forced to change.
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:02 AM   #254
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True that, unfortunately
In fact, Iíve heard that some car dealerships in our area are looking to get in on the action by selling campers, as well as cars. Has local RV dealerships ticked off, lol
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:16 AM   #255
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I spent 20 years doing repairs , service and trouble shooting of commercial and industrial equipment , designed and built in
Japan , China and Europe . I can testify that other countries can , do and are capable of producing CRAP . The US is not unique nor does it have the market cornered when it comes to producing under engineered , poor quality products.
If I was a foreign producer trying to sell in the US market , I would do all I could to perpetuate this false myth
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:43 AM   #256
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Operations managers everywhere seem to focus on production numbers, unless or until scrap / rework rates get so high that they have to provide explanations to their bosses and their customers.
Floyd is right when he says that buyers must assume some of the responsibility for what they buy.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:23 PM   #257
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I agree with that Mike. Size seems to have alot to do with it though. The bigger a manufacturer gets, and the more emphasis is placed on units per day produced, some of that pride in workmanship is inevitably lost, unless there is a huge effort and expenditure in quality control.

American car manufacturers for example had to basically change the entire way they did business a few decades ago, in order to match the quality of foreign competitors. If you saw the typical domestic car on a dealer lot in 1973, it was not a pretty sight. The poor quality and bad fit and finish were readily apparent. The companies that survived eventually did match quality, and in some cases exceeded it, but not without tremendous costs (including in some cases government bailouts), an ongoing effort, and massive changes to the manufacturing process.

I recall when I was waiting for the delivery of my new F150 back in early 2015. It had been completed for several weeks but they would not ship it until it had undergone several QC inspections. It was a frustrating wait, but I did get a quality product and have had zero issues.
Back in the seventies the switch to Japanese cars was due to the fuel crisis and long lines at the pump. Average American V8 cars without overdrive and with mandated crude emission controls were getting 10MPG in many cases. Of course Japanese cars looked more attractive in spite of inferior build quality. There were of course some American cars which were excellent choices of superior quality and reasonable fuel economy.
I have always liked small cars, so I fell for a 1973 Datsun PL620 pickup.
This truck was cute, but it was without doubt the absolute worst new vehicle I have ever owned,with mechanical failures at least weekly, body hardware failures and electrical failures. All this coupled with a crooked and incompetent dealer, making for an exciting ownership experience.

I sold that pathetic (albeit cute) POS after less than a year.

I subsequently bought the best truck in the world at the time and suffered no complaint over its entire service life.It was a 1976 Ford Econoline 6CYL stick.
Just sticking with new cars built in the seventies and my own experience after my Datsun...I had 4 new Fords (2 Econolines and two Pintos)
on which I spent a total of $11 in unscheduled maintenance.
Fit and finish was excellent on all four.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:33 PM   #258
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My dad traded in a Mercedes 190D on a Valiant.
He was oblivious to the paint runs on the door frames. What sort of company can't even paint their product?
Rest of the car was no better.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:42 PM   #259
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I've owned one foreign car in my lifetime and it was built in Canada
It was every bit as good as an American built auto and far better than most imports.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:46 PM   #260
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I think you mean it was assembled, not built. Parts come from the world wide.
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