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Old 01-19-2022, 11:54 AM   #61
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And

This topic has me going, if you didn't notice.

When you get to your destination with a hybrid you probably won't have a fully charged battery. If your battery is full when you are driving, you will be unable to absorb any energy when braking/decelerating. This would make your hybrid useless at that point. The programming is probably setup to keep it around 2/3 full so when you get to your destination you will only have about a kilowatt of power.
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Old 01-19-2022, 12:38 PM   #62
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The Pro Power Onboard gadget can be had with up to 7.2kw, FWIW. Even if that feature isn't useful, the PowerBoost hybrid engine doesn't seem to have a downside for towing. Who wouldn't want better gas mileage and more torque?
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Old 01-19-2022, 12:45 PM   #63
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The Pro Power Onboard gadget can be had with up to 7.2kw, FWIW. Even if that feature isn't useful, the PowerBoost hybrid engine doesn't seem to have a downside for towing. Who wouldn't want better gas mileage and more torque?
Yeah, you can get that, but the engine has to be running. That is a 7.2 kw generator with the world's largest engine.
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Old 01-19-2022, 12:56 PM   #64
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Yeah, you can get that, but the engine has to be running. That is a 7.2 kw generator with the world's largest engine.

You likely didn't mean those exact words. My old man used to talk of inspecting marine diesels for wear on the cylinder walls by climbing into the cylinders with a flashlight. I don't remember if he did that himself.
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:03 PM   #65
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Good information in practical terms someone like me who is lacking in electrical knowledge can easily understand. I have a relative who repairs Teslas and gave me similar information on drop in mileage when towing with electric. For now I'll stay with my Honda Pilot but watchf for changes in industry over the next few years in anticipation of going electric.
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:04 PM   #66
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We have been able to afford a lot more vacationing by moving toward ultra light compact hike camping gear and camping in our prius. It will even tow a small teardrop camper and still get around 30mpg. I can run a 2000 watt inverter off a couple 85 ah batteries automatically charged by the traction battery and when it starts running low the gas engine comes on for a few minutes, running quieter and more efficiently than almost any generator. It costs about $1.75 to sleep in air conditioned comfort in the almost full sized bed space in the back of the prius. Several people have rigged thermostats and electric heaters to get heat from the electrical system more efficiently than the usual method of running the gas engine all night to get heat from the engine coolant. My hybrid highlander does the same thing but with about half the gas mileage. I have a hybrid Ford Maverick on order that I am hoping will give me a bit more comfort and storage room and decent gas mileage with my teardrop and/or one of those 300 lb aluminium Overlander or four wheel Project M popup pickup campers with the king sized bed over the cab.
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Old 01-19-2022, 01:41 PM   #67
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Moving any mass, like a tug and trailer, requires energy. Regardless of the energy source used. the physics remains the same.
Fossil fuel technology has been developed to make this energy source viable. Unfortunately, there are environmental consequences to this source of energy which are problematic.
Electrical energy sources are significantly less developed and to date capable of powering only applications of lower energy demand. This situation is likely to change over time but we aren't there yet.
As technology advances and the infrastructure to support it is provided, EVs may become a viable option but presently it serves little purpose for folks like us.
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:03 PM   #68
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We have been able to afford a lot more vacationing by moving toward ultra light compact hike camping gear and camping in our prius. It will even tow a small teardrop camper and still get around 30mpg. I can run a 2000 watt inverter off a couple 85 ah batteries automatically charged by the traction battery and when it starts running low the gas engine comes on for a few minutes, running quieter and more efficiently than almost any generator. It costs about $1.75 to sleep in air conditioned comfort in the almost full sized bed space in the back of the prius. Several people have rigged thermostats and electric heaters to get heat from the electrical system more efficiently than the usual method of running the gas engine all night to get heat from the engine coolant. My hybrid highlander does the same thing but with about half the gas mileage. I have a hybrid Ford Maverick on order that I am hoping will give me a bit more comfort and storage room and decent gas mileage with my teardrop and/or one of those 300 lb aluminium Overlander or four wheel Project M popup pickup campers with the king sized bed over the cab.
There is a new 3-wheel EV called an Aptera. It is available with up to 1000 miles of range and has a solar option that is good for between 16-40 miles of charge per day. It also has a tent option for $600. If I were younger, I would be interested.

https://aptera.us/
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:13 PM   #69
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You know what they can do with their electric cars and truck .
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:23 PM   #70
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You know what they can do with their electric cars and truck .
Shove them up your?
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:24 PM   #71
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I have a family member that has an electric car.
Charge over night for 340 miles travel.
Charge at gro store charger for 1 hour for 15 miles.
Not for me especially when traveling with a camper.
5 minutes at gas station to fill up and I am on my way.
Heat and a/c doesn’t eat up my gas much either.
I am not against electric vehicles-to each their own.
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:56 PM   #72
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Towing RVs is pretty far down on the list of things to do with trucks. To make an electric truck work as a competitive option would be quite expensive. I don't think we will be seeing anything great for a while yet.

We better hold on to what we have because I think that during the transition good tow vehicles may become scarce.

It is coming whether you like it or not. Some gas stations are adding charging spots.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...itle&FORM=IGRE
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Old 01-19-2022, 04:29 PM   #73
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I have a Tesla Model Y and have been towing my Boler with it for a year. Yes it is true that my range is almost half towing my Boler. About 270 km vs 500km. I find that our Tesla is fantastic for all of our camping sites within two hours of home. We don’t do any back woods camping since we do enjoy campsites with power and showers. Our Tesla has lots of power so I hardly even feel the trailer behind us. We most always choose sites with power since we have air conditioning and electric heat in our Boler that works on 110 volt power just fine. Plus the 30 amp 110 volt outlet at the campsites will charge my car to full within one day of our arrival. For free.
For the few times that we don’t have 110volt power we stay closer to home. Our Boler has solar which powers our water pump, lights, our MaxFan ceiling fan and charges our electronics . We have propane for the fridge, stove and a catalytic heater. Pretty well self contained.
I really think the decision to buy a gas powered tow vehicle is only necessary if you want to spend long days driving to travel cross country with your trailer and stay off the grid. If you are happy staying at campsites with the comfort of power, bathrooms and showers and you only travel about 250 km per day then an electric tow vehicle may be a good choice. Plus you now have a great vehicle to drive for the all the other drives when you are not camping.
You may pay a bit more up front for an electric car than a gas car but your monthly costs are far far less.
These limitations will change in a few years. Solid state lithium batteries will start coming out in cars. Toyota says that they will have a car with an electric car with a 500 mile cruising range and 10 minute charge time with these batteries. I believe it. I've been a power supply designer for decades and I saw the improvement when capacitors went from liquid to solid electrolyte. Capacitor life, performance at cold temperature, and all properties improved. It looks like the same thing will happen to batteries.
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that we'll need to generate over twice as much electricity if we get to their goal of 50% electric cars. That will require more power plants (you can't rely on solar and wind all the time), and improved power distribution. I think that we'll have to suffer through some major power outages before our politicians realize this.
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Old 01-19-2022, 04:29 PM   #74
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There is a new 3-wheel EV called an Aptera. It is available with up to 1000 miles of range and has a solar option that is good for between 16-40 miles of charge per day. It also has a tent option for $600. If I were younger, I would be interested.

https://aptera.us/
I think you mean 100 mile range
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Old 01-19-2022, 04:36 PM   #75
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I think you mean 100 mile range
NO I definitely mean one thousand miles! The option costs around $20,000.
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Old 01-19-2022, 04:38 PM   #76
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New electric trucks are aimed at fleet buyers with central storage and lots of three phase power. It makes perfect sense for them : maintenance, parts delivery, construction in a 100 mile radius. This is ok because the concentration of emissions from trucks in urban areas is a major air quality issue. Cross country trailer towns is 10 to 15 years away and fuel cell tech may be that answer. I won’t see the rv tow vehicle solved in my time . I’ll try to buy the best truck that has decent gas mileage no towing for r my upcoming replacement. Towing is always going to be fuel thirsty.
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:47 PM   #77
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My bad I thought you were talking about the class c electric rv that I saw ,.
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Old 01-19-2022, 05:53 PM   #78
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The Aptera is really cute but they seem to go out of business then come back with a new scheme every couple years so do careful research before giving them or anyone else with no long track record any money.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:00 PM   #79
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These limitations will change in a few years. Solid state lithium batteries will start coming out in cars. Toyota says that they will have a car with an electric car with a 500 mile cruising range and 10 minute charge time with these batteries. I believe it. I've been a power supply designer for decades and I saw the improvement when capacitors went from liquid to solid electrolyte. Capacitor life, performance at cold temperature, and all properties improved. It looks like the same thing will happen to batteries.
Of course, this doesn't change the fact that we'll need to generate over twice as much electricity if we get to their goal of 50% electric cars. That will require more power plants (you can't rely on solar and wind all the time), and improved power distribution. I think that we'll have to suffer through some major power outages before our politicians realize this.
Perhaps this is my ignorance showing. (Not the first time!)

"... Solid state lithium batteries will start coming out in cars. ..." I have trouble reading that sentence. When I read "solid state" I think PN junctions. I don't think 19th century battery chemistry. Lithium is to me is just the ion of the week. I don't want you to jump thru flaming hoops to explain it to me. Just, whence "solid state"?

Another area that I struggle with is "improved power distribution". In the US we have three separate (I merely think that separate is the right word) grids. There is the regulated east, the regulated west, and Texas. It is obvious to everyone (I believe this) that we will need increased capacity, increased resilience from natural problems, technical issues, and many kinds of security threats. Are we willing to put up both more and higher capacity power lines in both flyover country and what isn't routinely called the heartland but maybe should be: our population centers on the coasts? (Off topic: my Dec 2020 Dell lapdog just announced that my battery is down to 6%. First warning. Hopefully Dell will have nothing to do with our grids. Is there some subtle irony here that Dell is headquartered in Texas?)

Current thinking is that resilience could come from the combination of major and micro grids. Sounds good to me. Bodyman and ex Governor Schwarzenegger says California (infrastuctre companies) are fighting micro grids as in household photo-voltaic power. One of my kids (who recently left Florida) talked of the sunshine state fighting sunshine power.


One of my favorite philosophers, Walt Kelly said: https://library.osu.edu/site/40stori...met-the-enemy/
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:52 PM   #80
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Perhaps this is my ignorance showing. (Not the first time!)

"... Solid state lithium batteries will start coming out in cars. ..." I have trouble reading that sentence. When I read "solid state" I think PN junctions. I don't think 19th century battery chemistry. Lithium is to me is just the ion of the week. I don't want you to jump thru flaming hoops to explain it to me. Just, whence "solid state"?

Another area that I struggle with is "improved power distribution". In the US we have three separate (I merely think that separate is the right word) grids. There is the regulated east, the regulated west, and Texas. It is obvious to everyone (I believe this) that we will need increased capacity, increased resilience from natural problems, technical issues, and many kinds of security threats. Are we willing to put up both more and higher capacity power lines in both flyover country and what isn't routinely called the heartland but maybe should be: our population centers on the coasts? (Off topic: my Dec 2020 Dell lapdog just announced that my battery is down to 6%. First warning. Hopefully Dell will have nothing to do with our grids. Is there some subtle irony here that Dell is headquartered in Texas?)

Current thinking is that resilience could come from the combination of major and micro grids. Sounds good to me. Bodyman and ex Governor Schwarzenegger says California (infrastuctre companies) are fighting micro grids as in household photo-voltaic power. One of my kids (who recently left Florida) talked of the sunshine state fighting sunshine power.


One of my favorite philosophers, Walt Kelly said: https://library.osu.edu/site/40stori...met-the-enemy/
I agree that the term solid state lithium batteries is confusing. But that's the term they use. Traditional lithium batteries, like older capacitors, use liquid electrolyte. Solid state refers to using solid electrolyte. It has longer life, better properties over the temperature range, and is safer. Based on my experience in the field, I firmly believe that going to solid electrolyte is a very good thing.

I think I follow what you're saying about the grid. I agree that it will be difficult to sell increased power generation and distribution to people. But if they want to go to 50% electric cars, there's no other option. If you're replacing gas (an energy source) with batteries (an energy storage device), you need to source the energy from somewhere else. You need more power plants, power lines, etc. You hear a lot of politicians talking about getting more electric cars. But they don't talk much about more power plants and power lines. I'm a conservative, but I will give Biden a plug here. He did mention that the Federal Government should have more power in approving new power lines (right now it's a local decision). That's a step in the right direction.

I'm in favor of renewable energy. But I know that we can't rely on it. Look at Texas last Winter. If we go to 50% electric cars, but rely on renewables to generate the extra electricity, we'll have many power outages. Renewables can reduce the use of fossil fuels. But we still need the ability to generate our electricity with fossil fuels during the times when we can't rely on solar and wind energy.
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