Gun Discussion - Split from "Bear Damage"

[kirkman]

I carry Bear spray and a 44 magnum.

[LHH]

Well said !

Originally Posted by kirkman

I carry Bear spray and a 44 magnum.

[mike_bc]

Originally Posted by kirkman

I carry Bear spray and a 44 magnum.

Hi Kirkman, you'll have to drop one or the other at the encounter. Which would it be?

You'll need both hands for the 44 and if you miss a kill shot (which is very likely) on the first round the bear will still be charging......

[AndyGee]

Originally Posted by kirkman

I carry Bear spray and a 44 magnum.

Actually up here in Canada , BC & Alberta in particular are trying to have laws regarding handguns changed to allow fishermen, hikers and campers to carry handguns while in bear country.

[Adrian W]

Come on Mike_BC, most guns will have a holster for them. I would assume bear stray would not have to held all the time in ones hand. A 44 magnum can be used to scare a bear as well as trying to kill one; a very good noise maker. My son carries one while fishing or is out in the woods/wilds of Alaska. But he said the best bear gun is a short shot gun. One group of folks walking along the Russian River when we were up there in July had one with them.

AndyGee, interesting information, I didn't realize Canadians were not allowed handguns in bear country. I assumed only Americans were not allowed them when in Canada. Are fishermen, hikers/campers allowed to carry shot guns while in the bush?

Donna, the photo is an eye opener. Thanks for sharing.

Moral of the story, don't leave an egg in bear country unattended. Wow!

No one is making bear proof TTs it seems. They might be too heavy for small TVs if they did. Ha! I can just see an all steel Teardrop with steel shutters or steel bars over the windows.

As for being in the egg when a bear is dismantling it, I am sure it takes some time for one to get the wrecking to take effect. With time one could use make noise, use bear spray or wasp spray, or boil some oil to throw into its mouth. Or to leave via the front door or via the roof exit, but I am not sure if I would want to leave with one outside. We keep a boat horn to be used to make noise.

PS: Boiling oil was not a serious suggestion. Boiling oil should only be dropped from the roof.

[barryra]

I killed a bear with a key chain Swiss Army knife once.... and if he didn't have the knife... I wouldn't have had to shoot him.

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by Adrian W

A 44 magnum can be used to scare a bear as well as trying to kill one; a very good noise maker.

A gun is not meant to be a noisemaker. Carry an air-horn for that. Where do you expect to point the thing for noise-making? I was trained that the only direction you point a weapon is at a target you expect your round to penetrate. Other than for cleaning, target practice or competitive shooting, the only time a piece comes out of it's holster is when you intend to kill.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Frederick L. Simson

A gun is not meant to be a noisemaker. Carry an air-horn for that. Where do you expect to point the thing for noise-making? I was trained that the only direction you point a weapon is at a target you expect your round to penetrate. Other than for cleaning, target practice or competitive shooting, the only time a piece comes out of it's holster is when you intend to kill.

But a Swiss Army knife.... now there can be any number of reasons to take it out of it's holster!

[Carol H]

A gun to scare a bear??? Why? do that here and you get to go directly to jail.

In most situations a good yell or air horn or banging pots and pans - often just a clap of the hands works just fine (yup even when its enjoying a meal of your garbage). Even our conservation officers will try all of the above to scare off a *problem* bear (one sitting in your back yard is not a problem and the conservation officers will not even come for that) before they bring out the guns and usually its a tranquilizer - the real gun will only come out if the bear is being aggressive & the tranquilizer doesnt do it - which doesnt happen all that often when one looks at the total number of times per day we have human and bear interaction in the area.

[Joe MacDonald]

Campers etc are not allowed to have firearms in any national or provincial park in Canada, even most of our wardens/rangers do not carry firearms.
as a rule, we are not allowed to carry a longun unless there is an open season on something and you have the licence for that species, and the gun has to be appropriate to that species as well.. rabbit season, a 22 or shotgun with bb's, not a 3006 or 4570 for example. Licenced trappers, hunting guides while guiding, prospectors and peace officers are the only ones who can get a carry permit for handguns in Canada.
Joe

[kirkman]

Originally Posted by mike_bc

Hi Kirkman, you'll have to drop one or the other at the encounter. Which would it be?

You'll need both hands for the 44 and if you miss a kill shot (which is very likely) on the first round the bear will still be charging......

Mike_bc...I have shot and killed one that was charging 10 years ago while fishing in Alaska

Originally Posted by AndyGee

Actually up here in Canada , BC & Alberta in particular are trying to have laws regarding handguns changed to allow fishermen, hikers and campers to carry handguns while in bear country.

Andygee....Is about time! It has been that way in Alaska for ever.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by kirkman

Mike_bc...I have shot and killed one that was charging 10 years ago while fishing in Alaska

Andygee....Is about time! It has been that way in Alaska for ever.

I would not put any money on it actually happening in BC any time soon. Grizzly areas perhaps & thats a big perhaps .... black bear areas not a chance.

[Adrian W]

Originally Posted by Frederick L. Simson

A gun is not meant to be a noisemaker. Carry an air-horn for that. Where do you expect to point the thing for noise-making? I was trained that the only direction you point a weapon is at a target you expect your round to penetrate. Other than for cleaning, target practice or competitive shooting, the only time a piece comes out of it's holster is when you intend to kill.

Out in the wild areas which often have bears, one can point them to the side of the bear toward a creek/river bank, cut bank, at a tree and if the noise of the shot does not discourage an attack, it will be out for a kill shot.

I believe the adage of not drawing a weapon unless you intent to use it mainly applies to human "targets".

The reason I mentioned a gun as a noise maker, I have seen a few wildlife videos of fisherman out in the wilds of Alaska. The guides have firearms and before they shoot to kill they have often done a round to scare the bear away. It worked for them and I assumed they are professionals. The one which came to mind was the man fishing had a salmon on the line, a grizzly came after the fish which was very close to the fisherman. The guide took his pistol out, fired it into the river in front of and to the side of the bear. The bear withdrew.

This is not in an urban area, or with human habitation close by. But yes, caution should be used to where the shot is directed. Nothing is as scary as hearing a round singing over ones head.

One could use a blank round for scaring a bear, but if the situation does not warrant only a lot of noise, having a blank round would not be to wise. I'd prefer shooting into the river, ground or tree, etc. before shooting an animal.

As I had mentioned before, I carry an air-horn to make noise when out. But if I had a firearm, I would use it as a noise maker before shooting to kill if possible.

I do not expect you to do start using one to scare bears. I was not thinking about using a 44 Mag as a noise maker in a campground, or in many places in the Lower 48. However, I believe in some areas of the 47th state I might use a firearm to scare before to kill. Changed from the 48th state.

I have been know in the past to scare a deer or two as well as a coyote or two, but my intent was not to scare them at the time.

Looks like firearm noise works in Canada as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bx-0Jg3tX0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Mc_3OVqsNwc

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Adrian W

Out in the wild areas which often have bears, one can point them to the side of the bear toward a creek/river bank, cut bank, at a tree and if the noise of the shot does not discourage an attack, it will be out for a kill shot.

I believe the adage of not drawing a weapon unless you intent to use it mainly applies to human "targets".

The reason I mentioned a gun as a noise maker, I have seen a few wildlife videos of fisherman out in the wilds of Alaska. The guides have firearms and before they shoot to kill they have often done a round to scare the bear away. It worked for them and I assumed they are professionals. The one which came to mind was the man fishing had a salmon on the line, a grizzly came after the fish which was very close to the fisherman. The guide took his pistol out, fired it into the river in front of and to the side of the bear. The bear withdrew.

This is not in an urban area, or with human habitation close by. But yes, caution should be used to where the shot is directed. Nothing is as scary as hearing a round singing over ones head.

One could use a blank round for scaring a bear, but if the situation does not warrant only a lot of noise, having a blank round would not be to wise. I'd prefer shooting into the river, ground or tree, etc. before shooting an animal.

As I had mentioned before, I carry an air-horn to make noise when out. But if I had a firearm, I would use it as a noise maker before shooting to kill if possible.

I do not expect you to do start using one to scare bears. I was not thinking about using a 44 Mag as a noise maker in a campground, or in many places in the Lower 48. However, I believe in some areas of the 48th state I might use a firearm to scare before to kill.

I have been know in the past to scare a deer or two as well as a coyote or two, but my intent was not to scare them at the time.

Did you mean Arizona? or the 49th state... Alaska

[Adrian W]

Ooops, I ment the 47th state, but the 48th would work as well. Got them mixed in my mind there. New Mexico, the 47th state, Arizona, the 48th. 1912 for both. Alaska the 49th - 1959.

Lower 48 are all the first 48 states.

[AndyGee]

Joe Mac has it mostly right for Canada other than farmers as they can pretty much shoot any thing anytime to protect livestock or crops. We used to let bears have it with a 410 from the kitchen window when they'd get up in the apple trees in our small orchard. It wouldn't kill them but it'd sure make 'em high tail it outa there.
I should also mention that it's hunting and angling groups that are pushing to allow the carry of a side arm for protection. There are areas in Alberta if you don't have bear spray with you you could get a fine up to $400.
This year with the large forest fires we've had in northern Alberta there have been more in town sightings of wildlife not normally found in town. I leave for work at 5:30am and have seen bears wolves deer moose and my neighbour saw a cougar and I've seen it's tracks.

[Andrew GPSMapNut]

Originally Posted by AndyGee

Joe Mac has it mostly right for Canada .....

I don't know about other provinces but, for Ontario Joe's statement is not accurate. He wrote:
"as a rule, we are not allowed to carry a longun unless there is an open season on something and you have the licence for that species, and the gun has to be appropriate to that species as well.. rabbit season, a 22 or shotgun with bb's, not a 3006 or 4570 for example."

Well, in Ontario, outside prov. / national parks, in the areas where and when there is no open season for big game (deer, moose, elk, bear): there is virtually no restriction on the long guns. You can have with you any calibre you want.
When there is a big game open season, unless you have a valid hunting license for the species in season, you can't have anything larger than 22 rimfire or shotgun with shells loaded with #2 shot maximum. Except for few counties, if you decide to take out a grouse or w rabbit with a 7mm magnum, it's perfectly legal providing that you do have a hunting license.
Well, I'd say that fully chocked shotgun loaded with #2, in close quarters will stop any bear providing that you will have a chance to use it... It definitely would be safer make noise to scare it off from a distance. Safer than missing the kill shot and pissing the bear off.

[Perry J]

I served 2 tours in Viet Nam and know the stress of a fire fight.
Most of my adult life has been in Law Enforcement
I've been an avid shooter all my life and 99 % of the time I hit what I'm shooting at.
I think in the face of charging bear I would rather depend on my Bear
Spray than my .45.
John

[Casita Greg]

This is my "Bear Spray!" .500 S&W Magnum...Eat your heart out, Dirty Harry!



.44 Magnum vs .500 S&W Magnum.

The .500 S&W Magnum was designed to be primarily a handgun hunting cartridge. It also serves a secondary purpose as a back-up survival handgun cartridge as a defense against the large bears of North America. Due to its power, recoil, and size; the 500 S&W Magnum is a poor self-defense or concealed-carry weapon especially in an urban environment.
The .500 S&W Magnum’s success with large dangerous game is in part due the availability of heavier bullets with exceptional sectional densities. Bullets above 500-grain (32 g) have the sectional densities required for hunting heavier African dangerous game. As a hunting cartridge the .500 S&W Magnum has been found to be effective against elephant and African buffalo as long as ranges are kept within reasonable limits. Bullet selection is extremely important when hunting thick-skinned dangerous game. Smith & Wesson bills the Model 500 revolver as "A Hunting Handgun For Any Game Animal Walking".
In North America, it serves the purpose of hunting all North American big game species. The cartridge has had success in harvesting of Alaskan brown bear, American bison, moose, and elk. It is also used to hunt black bear, whitetail deer, wild boar, and feral hogs. The cartridge gained some notoriety as being the cartridge which was used to hunt the supposed Monster Pig.
Bullets ranging from 275–325 gr (17.8–21.1 g) can be used for light CXP2 game species. Bullets heavier than 350 gr (23 g), including Winchester’s reduced-load ammunition, are appropriate for use with CXP3 game species. Bullets over 500 gr (32 g) can be used for dangerous game. Hornady’s 500 gr. SP load is rated for CXP4 class dangerous game by Hornady out to 200 yd (180 m) against dangerous game, based on Hornady Index of Terminal Standards (H.I.T.S.)calculations.
The .500 S&W Magnum is available in firearms more convenient to carry than a full-sized rifle. This lends to its use as a defensive carry firearm in areas where dangerous predatory species may be encountered. The .500 S&W Magnum cartridge has found use in survival guns such as the NEF Handi Rifle and the S&W Survival Kit. It is carried in Alaska for defense against the bears. Smith & Wesson manufactures a 4-inch-barrel (100 mm) version of the Model 500 revolver which is included in the S&W Survival Kit. This shorter-barreled revolver is handier, weighing 56 oz (1.6 kg) and coming with a larger and more efficient muzzle brake than the more common Model 500 8.375 in (212.7 mm) revolvers.
The .500 S&W Magnum is a niche cartridge, in that it has little purpose outside its primary design purpose. The power, energy and recoil generated by the cartridge makes it a poor choice as a defensive handgun cartridge or for target shooting or general plinking. For a large part its popularity is owed to the cartridge being the most powerful handgun cartridge and the curiosity that inevitably follows any such moniker or claim.

[Mike Magee]

Perry J, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Casita Greg, that thing weighs about 4.5 lbs with the long barrel, doesn't it? I think I'd rather carry a shotgun. Some 20 gauges only weigh 1 lb more and will punch a larger hole. Similar muzzle velocity, too.

But if I had both a large firearm and UDAP repellent, with a bear coming I think I'd be likely to reach for the spray first. Hopefully I never will need to reach for anything, though... I don't want to see any bears up close and personal!