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Old 09-26-2006, 05:45 PM   #21
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No doubt. No trees, no forest fire.
I wonder how the forests survived without the Forest Service to "manage" them. They've been there a lot longer than the Forest Service has existed.

They are not surviving very well, go to www.forestsfuture.fs.fed.us and it will back up what I have been saying. The overgrowth began in the late 60s and 70s when logging became the target of the enviromentalists. They are not what I call true enviromentalists, they are what I call protectionists. The politically correct Protectionists see man as a predator and spoiler. The politically correct have taken over the management of the USFS and they are the cause of the terrible conditions that our forests are in.
Apparently my telling the truth, as I see it, has upset quite a few of you. I did not mean to. My wish was to point out the dire straights that our forests are in and our potential loss of the use of the forest that we all love.
This will be my last post on this subject as I do not wish to upset anyone any further.
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Old 09-26-2006, 07:10 PM   #22
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I was terribly upset when I found out that they were selling the lumber out of our National Forests. But that was because I thought that they were clear-cutting it.

I was in the flood of Oct. 94 here, and a lot of the damage to my neighborhood was because a land owner had just completely clear-cut a beautiful forest of many hundreds of acres, upstream from me. The water just sloshed down over us, and our houses, with nothing to stop it, and it had never done that before.

If the FS manage the timber cutting so that it helps the new growth, and reduces the risk of fires, which therefore saves people, and animal's lives, I am all for it. IF the proceeds from the sale of the lumber are used to maintain the beauty of our forests that is a plus, too.
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Old 09-26-2006, 07:41 PM   #23
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Apparently my telling the truth, as I see it, has upset quite a few of you. I did not mean to. My wish was to point out the dire straights that our forests are in and our potential loss of the use of the forest that we all love.
This will be my last post on this subject as I do not wish to upset anyone any further.
John
John,

I don't think that encouraging a lively discussion about our national forests and the way they're managed is upsetting at all. There are a variety of views on how they should be managed, and I think it appropriate that we be able to discuss them intelligently and with open minds. Obviously some folks tend to be more passionate than others, but we all learn from the discussions. We can learn from both the good and bad things that have been done in the past to manage them, and perhaps find an appropriately balanced way to better manage them into the future, but unless we as the users of the forests understand how they've gotten to be the way they are, we can't understand what needs to be done to properly protect and manage them for posterity.

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Old 09-26-2006, 08:31 PM   #24
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I wasn't going to respond to this topic again, but....

The Forest Service is charged with managing a crop, trees. Many of the Forest Service Timber managers came from the timber industry. If they didn't come out of the timber industry they were good friends with those in the timber industry. The timber industry's goal is to cut down trees and sell timber products. Large machines were designed and built to cut down trees at an alarming rate. Laws were passed to control the amount of timber cut i.e. non-declining yield. The Forest Service and their timeber baron buddies chose to ignore the law. After many law suites the Forest Service was forced to reduce the amount of timeber cut to attempt to get back to the point they were supposed to . That couldn't be done, so the point was moved. There's still some time to go before non-declining yield can be reached.

As for forest fires, the main reason they do so much damage is the timber industry and Forest Service stopped all forest fires. Need to save the trees for the timber barons you know. Hence there has been a large build up of fuels on the forest floor. Fires have always been a part of nature. Most fires are natural, not caused by man. With the amount of fuels on the forest floor the fires burn very hot. Hot harder to fight, more damage to environment, etc.

As I recall the last times I wandered around a clear cut there was a lot of fuel on the ground. Not natural fuel but fuel left behind by the loggers. In fact it was practice to do "dirty logging" (Forest Service term not mine). Which meant leave all the branches on lying around on the ground.

The Forest Service also in the logging hay days attempted to build a road into as many places as they could to prevent more lands put into declared wilderness.

Mother nature took very good care of the forests, otherwise there wouldn't be "Old Growth" areas. Man interviened and still doesn't understand enough to know how to balance all the needs of man and nature.

I think we're getting better, and it's too bad that much of the timber industry had to be shut down, but I think it's the timber industry's influence on the Forest Service that cause the over harvest. Which had resulted in the timber industry being shut down 20 years before they ran out of trees.

It does take 300 years to grow a 300 year old tree. Most of those are long gone now.

I think you can really blame the mismanagement on three things.
First and far most, not fully understanding how nature works. We still got a ways to go.
Second. Greed of the timber industry. (you see the same thing in oil today)
Third. The increase in population and demands on the system.

So you have another point of view.

By the way every since the Forest Service has been publishing forest plans we've been studying them.
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Old 09-27-2006, 08:15 AM   #25
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Just read in the US News, The Forest Service will start charging $50 on Oct 1 for people to get married in the Great smoky park (Tennessee - Carolina border) and said that just covers costs.

Just think of what the clean up will be after the wedding. Many people will just walk away and leave all the litter on the ground and think it is OK.

I certainly have no objection to them covering costs for such an occasion.
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Old 09-27-2006, 08:30 AM   #26
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In NC we're fortunate to have four National Forests; Croatan (coast), Uwharrie (central), Nantahala (southern mtns) and Pisgah (northern mtns). Over the past forty plus years, we've camped extensively in all of them. It has been my experience that the management of those lands with which I'm familiar has improved significantly over time. Many of the campgrounds have undergone major renovations, particularly to the bathroom facilities and the road system is in better condition than ever. Resource damage by timber harvesting, at least in my lifetime, has not been an issue although pictures I've seen from around the turn of the century indicate this has not always been the case. We've not had problems with the FS staff either. I'll admit they're not very proactive in dealing with the public but I've found them to helpful, knowledgeable and courteous when approached.

The following link provides some interesting statistics from 2005 for the National Forests in NC. Of particular note is that revenue from recreational activities exceeded that from timber harvesting.
http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/facts/forest_facts_05.pdf

For a government agency, they actually have a fairly decent home page http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/
Lots of emphasis on recreational activities can be found there.

Maybe we don't have the 'timber barons' here in the southeast but the Weyerhauser, Georgia-Pacific and Canal Wood operations that are local seem to do a decent job with their 'sustained yield' policy and, in my opinion, have proven to be good corporate neighbors. Believe it or not, they do understand that cutting down all the trees really isn't in their best interests.

FWIW, I don't work in the timber industry or have any ties to the US or NC Forest Service but my experiences with them has not be negative in the least. Just another point of view.


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Old 09-27-2006, 08:43 AM   #27
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Just read in the US News, The Forest Service will start charging $50 on Oct 1 for people to get married in the Great smoky park (Tennessee - Carolina border) and said that just covers costs.

Just think of what the clean up will be after the wedding. Many people will just walk away and leave all the litter on the ground and think it is OK.

I certainly have no objection to them covering costs for such an occasion.

There sure seems to be a lot of confusion about federal services and lands. National Parks like the Great Smoky Mountain National Park (Key work PARK) are under the national Department of Interior. The National Forests (Key word FOREST) are under the Department of Agriculture. Two completely different goverment agencies, with two completely different missions.
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Old 09-27-2006, 11:45 AM   #28
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I didn't know that however I do speculate that neither one of them have received enough funding to accomplish their mission.

This thread started off as a campsite in a National Forest. Sounds like the National Park Service and the National Forest service have some boundry issues. Why not let the forest people worry about the trees and let the park people worry about picknick tables and camp sites?
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:54 PM   #29
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I didn't know that however I do speculate that neither one of them have received enough funding to accomplish their mission.

This thread started off as a campsite in a National Forest. Sounds like the National Park Service and the National Forest service have some boundry issues. Why not let the forest people worry about the trees and let the park people worry about picknick tables and camp sites?
An interesting thought, Darwin, but it seems that "we the people" want to be able to enjoy all of our public lands. Both need to be managed, and available to the public for those uses that the public see fit. The issue is complex.

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Old 09-27-2006, 03:57 PM   #30
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Hi Darwin - Al here

The National Forests here in NC actually have as many if not more camping facilities than you'll find on the Blue Ridge Parkway or in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. In addition to several developed campgrounds, the Forest Service offers 'dispersed' camping in many areas. In some cases, these are nothing more than a spot beside a FS road just large enough for a vehicle and tent (or, in my case, a Scamp). In others, there will be a tent pad, picnic table, lamp post and grill or fire pit. Usually, these are free and available on a first come first served basis.

Just outside the entrance to the Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest is Horse Cove campground. Its spllit into two sections; most of the sites on the upper level are beside a small branch which feeds into Santeelah Creek that runs next to the dozen or so lower sites. No showers but it does have flush toilets and water spigots. I don't think there's a prettier campground in western NC and, at $10/night, its a steal.

A mile or so away is a single lane FS dirt road that runs for about five miles along this same creek. About twenty sites with picnic tables, fire pits and lamp posts are scattered about and the price - FREE!

There's even a cabin available ($25/night) should you want to bring friends along http://www.main.nc.us/graham/hiking/santeetlah.html

Anyone not taking advantage of the many recreational opportunites offered in our National Forests is really missing out.

Take care - Al
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:59 PM   #31
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It seems Roger is correct. We need to contact our representitives & make our wishes known.

There is a NEW push to get the public input about fees.

PUBLIC ADVISORY COMMITTEES TO PROVIDE RECOMMENDATIONS ON FEDERAL RECREATION FEES
http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal?contentidon...006/09/0371.xml

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Old 09-27-2006, 04:03 PM   #32
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Then we have the Bureau of Land Management. I was intending on moving out west once (China Lake, CA) and it is surrounded by BLM land and at the time would send you maps for free. I requested them and got a case, (rather large cardboard box) of BLM maps.

Sounds like another government agency that could be consolidated into one single agency and just may be able to do it all with about ½ the people.

To many directors, to many managers and not enough people on the ground keeping things in repair and available. All the Money spent on the office people.

Bureau of Land Management
Forest Service
National Parks
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Old 09-27-2006, 04:16 PM   #33
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I wasn't trying to criticize, but to inform. It's easy to understand why it might not be clear, particularly in some parts of the country. Darwin, in Virginia there's only two National Forests, totaling 1.6 million acres. Here in Oregon there are 14 National Forests covering close to 17 million acres. That's approximately 30% of Oregon's Land. Oregon has 1 National Park. Nearby Washington State is close to the same except there's at least 3 National Parks in Washington State.

In either case the rules for recreational use are vastly different between National Parks and National Forests. Example: In the National Forest camping is allowed anyplace that isn't marked "no camping". In the National Parks you can only camp in designated spots, this includes the backcountry hike-in places in most parks. You're also required to stay on the trail in many National Parks if you're hiking. Not so in the National Forest.

The recreation philosophy of each is vastly different. The National Park service concentrates people into small areas. The Forest Service encourages dispersed camping.

I'm not trying to say one is better than the other just different. If you prefer the atmosphere of the National Parks, that's great. If you prefer the solitude of the National Forests, that's great too.
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