New Electric F-150 and thoughts on electrification of Tow Vehicles

[EribaFan]

Originally Posted by Alex in LA

Hi everyone,

Yesterday was a pretty exciting day for those who are into Fords and for those who are into electric cars - Ford revealed new F-150 Lightning which is their new electric truck scheduled to come out next spring.
The news are all over internet, I like autoblog.com coverage.
Electrifying the bestseller like F-150 will likely move us into new era and effect everyone including those who tow their fiberglass trailers.
Several thoughts come to mind, and here's one that I wonder about:
One of the features of new F-150 is actually PROVIDING power to people's house. Ford claims it can power an "average" house for up to 3 days. So if it can do that, than surely it can power a small fiberglass trailer and probably for much longer? If that's the case, EVERY primitive camp site will come with an electric hook-up! ... if your TV is Ford Lightning or a comparable electric truck. That would change camping for SO many people! What do you think?

We are doing it right now with a Model X and the Hymer Touring GT (3200 lbs max. weight). 500...550 Wh/mile. Of course, the Supercharger network is critical for long distance travel. But the CCS chargers are slowly getting there as well. And electric sites are also nice to have, so you can always have a charged car in the morning.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

I have said this before, but it bears repeating. There are only three sources of electricity. Fossil fuels, (coal, diesel, petrel and gas) nuclear and renewable, (solar, wind, hydro...). That’s it.

Good post. FWIW, 2/3 my electricity comes from garbage. Methane, that in the past was released into the atmosphere is collected and powers a 10 Mwatt generator. Of course the stuff that creates the methane can no longer be put in the land fill.

[Weekender]

I don’t know. It’s a neat concept, but for now, I see it as more of a big toy with a large price tag. I don’t see getting one of these for many years, and then I’ll probably be dead! I will gladly take a gasoline powered F150 in good working condition off anyone’s hands. It’s old hat, you know!

[Dbasdan]

Regarding Tesla, there are models starting at $40k but it seems the most popular models run towards $70-80k. As far as charging, I have never heard of it being charged in 30 minutes. However a quick web search does show over 20 hours at 110v and close to 11 hours at 220v. And 300 mile range is substantially lower than most current ICEcars. They might be fine for some people but the masses?

[lymey13]

Yeah great another electric vehicle. Another set of huge batteries that cannot be recycled. Another set of batteries to leak caustic chemicals into the ground. Another hazard for first responders to face. What do you think happens with all of the old batteries? All of the old electric vehicles that the batteries cost more to replace than the value of the truck? They are just like the huge blades on wind powered turbines. They get buried in a landfill where they will never decompose because of the materials used to build them. The batteries will leak chemicals into the ground and water systems.

[bpjod]

Originally Posted by Dbasdan

Regarding Tesla, there are models starting at $40k but it seems the most popular models run towards $70-80k. As far as charging, I have never heard of it being charged in 30 minutes. However a quick web search does show over 20 hours at 110v and close to 11 hours at 220v. And 300 mile range is substantially lower than most current ICEcars. They might be fine for some people but the masses?

Some realistic numbers for you. With my Tesla Model 3 to get from 0% to 100% (in reality I rarely ever drop below 10% and usually only charge to 85%, but do charge to 100% prior to a long road trip):

Level 1 charging:
120V / 15A (12A steady draw): 50 hours, so 20 hours is way to optimistic. An overnight 10 hour charge will add about 100 km (60 mi) range overnight, enough to cover most people's daily needs.

Level 2 charging:
240V / 50A (40A steady draw): 8 hours or a full charge every night. This is what I have in my garage, but many get by fine with 120V / 15A, or better yet 20A outlets in their garage. This is what many public chargers, including the chargers at hotels offer. (Range from 20A to 80A although not many EVs can accept more than 40A). Note, this is what you get from a 50A service in an RV park.

Level 3 charging:
Tesla's Superchargers get me up to about 80% from near empty in 30 - 40 minutes. It's barely enough time to take a bathroom break, grab a quick meal and get everyone back in the car to get back on the road. The charge rate starts tapering noticeably after 60% and to get from 80% to 100% is not worth waiting for (most of an hour for that last 20%). It's better to just get back on the road and head to the next Supercharger. This is something many struggle with at first as after a lifetime of ICE vehicles and filling the tank, it seems counterintuitive to leave with only 60-80% charge, but it is the way to go when covering a lot of miles in a day. The Superchargers are quite extensive - see map.

There are other networks of Level 3 charging for non-Teslas (i.e. the Ford Lightning). They often have issues and I'll leave it at that. You can do your homework if you want more information.

[RogerDat]

Just a friendly reminder. This forum is not a place to share political viewpoints. Posting a something that is full of hot button political topics and terms is a good way to make mods work to hand out infractions and delete posts.

If in doubt ask yourself how important is this information to the topic of camping and RV's? How on topic is it? Your opinion is valuable here to the extent it fits with the friendly tenor of this forum.

I'm lazy, unpaid, and frankly could lose a few pounds so I'm not overly motivated to winnow through a post looking for the political parts to edit out. I'm more of a delete the post, I assume people know better when they hit the submit button.

When I was taking my "token" shower shower there was a strong inclination to run a tarp around 2 trees and make a shower stall, heat a big coffee pot of water to boiling and use my stew pot with cold to take a "cup" shower. Dear wife gave me the look that said she was not amused at the idea in order to save a buck.

Change will come and there will be some level of disruption and upheaval. I think the post that speculated over how different trades and markets such as auto mechanics would be impacted was thought provoking. Mom was an accountant, long retired when computer accounting software revolutionized that business reducing the number and skill level of accounting staff a great deal.

I guess one of the things I like about Scamp is they sort of figured out what works and just keep doing it. One of the things folks admire in the newer molded manufacturers is the improvements and innovations.

I have had a great Ford pickup. With a straight 6 engine. Thing had so much power that the only way you could tell it had a bed full of crushed rock was the ride was smoother. I don't want today's trucks. A car with a bed as much as a work vehicle. Bought a small SUV (Escape V6) and a decent utility trailer that gets used a couple of times a year which tells you how often I need a truck bed.

Still the trucks are popular, so ford has a product with a market and is trying to innovate in that space. I say good on them. What is today will most certainly not remain without changing. Charging stations, energy infrastructure, technology, lifestyles, occupations. My father grew up with an outhouse and hand pumps in some of the family homes in Alaska and Kansas. He passed with computer assisted waste treatment plants and bottled water sold everywhere. Things just change.

I for one do not even want to pick up the wooden pack frame I had as a young boy. Sans gear it probably weighed 10 lbs. Now entire backpacking set ups can be had that are only 2 or 3 times that weight.

[RogerDat]

All that said about not wanting a pickup the one thing that is funny is I have told myself that when I retire I will not drive more than 5 or 6 hours in a day. Spent too many vacations hammer down trying to keep travel time to a minimum, driving until I had to take a nap, then waking up and driving some more.

I could see driving 200 miles, charging, going another 50 to 100 miles then setting up camp for the night as a wonderful change. An electric tow vehicle could fill that niche. Might struggle in some back country locations until charging stations infrastructure becomes a lot more common.

I did think the discontinued Volt made a lot of sense. Plug in electric but gas powered generator to keep going. Thus had an all electric drive train rather than the weight and expense of both gas and electric drive trains. Believe it is being discontinued in favor of all electric but I could really see that as a viable design for more remote camping tow vehicle.

[Alex in LA]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

I did think the discontinued Volt made a lot of sense. Plug in electric but gas powered generator to keep going. Thus had an all electric drive train rather than the weight and expense of both gas and electric drive trains. Believe it is being discontinued in favor of all electric but I could really see that as a viable design for more remote camping tow vehicle.

I think it would be a great option on a "Camper" trim for the new Lightning
Probably too complicated/expensive to be viable, but sounds like lot's of folks on this forum would have picked it!

[Bayou Belle]

I'm pretty stoked for an all electric F150. My husband's explorer already exceeds some of the features of our Model X (full self driving capable) and Model S. Who really cares what it can power and how long it will take to do it? Elon Musk doesn't sleep and he leaves his patents open--so before you can say Space X three times he will have that all figured out, too.

The negativity and skepticism is like the media continuing to look for Musk weaknesses on slow news days. It's better technology than we've had and that's a great start. Everything historically started somewhere. Remember your bag cell phone? It still made calls. It just wouldn't fit in your pocket.

[thrifty bill]

One main advantage is you replace millions of individual point sources (cars) with hundreds of major sources (power plants). It’s easier to control emissions from a handful of sites. As more renewable generation sites are built, they will replace aging power plants, coal first and then natural gas. Will need a lot more advancement in battery technology (what do you do when the sun isn’t shining or the wind isn’t blowing).

We are not there yet, but in the next 10 to 20 years we will be. Ford is estimating 40% of their product line will be electric by 2030.

[rdickens]

For those interested in a bit of electric car history, you might watch a video (currently out on Amazon Prime Video) called "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

Twenty five years ago (1996), GM produced the EV1/EV-1 and leased it to customers. Apparently GM succumbed to oil industry pressure and, at the end of the lease term, recalled the cars and crushed them.

I sat in a Forum tent, at the Oshkosh air show (YouTube - "Oshkosh- The Spirit of Aviation"), and listened to Burt Rutan (a very famous aircraft designer of foam/fiberglass planes - like the Voyager that went non-stop around the world). He loved his EV-1 and said the he even thought about telling GM that his car had burned up in a barn fire ... but he decided that they would figure out that wasn't true )

Let's hope that Tesla, Ford, Rivian, etc. won't let that happen again!

For those who may have wondered, NASA has been studying electric aviation for quite a while now and there are currently a number of eVTOL aircraft in development. The first

Lilium

flew about a year ago and they have since been working on an updated

5-passenger version

.

Electric vehicles may disrupt the transportation industry but, I think that they may succeed this time and they will likely seriously change the way we move around.

Enjoy the URL links!

Ray

[minke]

I saw an electric runabout at the Mystic Seaport Museum early this century. IIRC it was made in the 19th century, including motor, running gear, and batteries. I presume that the batteries that I saw weren’t original, but they did have the lead straps connecting the cells that was common in the 50s and 60s.
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[CarlD]

EVs will eventually win out, but not without major disruption of automotive infrastructure. Alan Greenspan called it 'creative destruction' in the 90s.

'Creative destruction refers to the incessant product and process innovation mechanism by which new production units replace outdated ones. It was coined by Joseph Schumpeter (1942), who considered it 'the essential fact about capitalism'.'


Think phones, cameras, carburetors, bias ply tires, wood house siding, blah blah blah.

[Jane P.]

I’ve been hoping for this breakthrough: a powerful, electric TV. I really don’t think the Ford F-150 lightning is outrageously priced. To tell the truth, if we replace our 2007 Chevy Tahoe SUV, we’d be paying $75,000.

However, unfortunately, this truck is not yet ready for Fiberglass Trailer prime time.

We need “many” (I mean, many) more charging stations throughout the country. This is the biggest drawback for me.

It would be nice, but not necessarily a deal breaker, if there were drive through lanes for travel trailers. Cause, who wants to unhook every time they recharged their TV.

There were some concerns about starting up an e-TV when leaving a campsite. After a couple of weeks at one spot, will you be able to start up your electric TV and/or get it to a charging station. Per my research into my rooftop solar system, it’s probably possible to recharge you TV from your trailer’s charging system and maybe even use your rooftop solar panels when traveling during the day. But I’d need to know that I can actually set that up with my rig. I’d want to know that there’s enough, well placed, charging stations in the boondocks, so I can be reasonably assured that I can reach one from any campsite.

Our Tahoe is built on Chevy’s Silverado truck platform. In an ideal world, Ford would offer a full sized, electric SUV built on it F-150 platform.

But I am amazed we are so close to towing our rigs with an electric truck that looks like a normal vehicle, has enough power to tow my fiberglass trailers, has a decent towing range, and is within our budget.

I have no idea if we are 2 or 10 years away from providing campers with crucial number of charging stations both en route & in the boondocks and addressing technical concerns of allowing the e-TV to sit idly at a campsite for several days or weeks. But once these things are worked out, I’ll definitely get on line.

[minke]

18 wheelers seem to be going two ways. Shorter distances will likely use batteries and longer distances hydrogen.

[EribaFan]

Here are some real life experiences with our combination(Tesla MX with the Hymer Touring GT, 3000 lbs) from a 1500-mile trip from Western PA to Maine. We were able to charge our car on 2 of 5 campgrounds, other than that it was all Tesla Superchargers. We never had to unhitch our trailer for charging, either the (newer) locations offer pull-through or at least pull-in stations, or we could do it without impacting other folks. Our usage towing the trailer was 550Wh/mile, giving us a comfortable range of 150 miles between stops. Lunch in the trailer while charging was our limiting factor, it was done charging before we were😉.

[jeepers29]

Originally Posted by JStelly

If anyone wants to get a real world taste of electric vehicles in remote locations I suggest this series. Two electric motorcycles and one prototype electric truck. The challenges they faced with limited range, cold temperatures, headwinds, limited charging options were a reality check for them and for me dispelled the utopia of electric vehicles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Way_Up

This is a great watch. The other two in the series are great as well but don't use electric vehicles.

[Raz]

Ran across this article regarding electric vehicles, lithium ion batteries, and fire.

Electric vehicles and fire

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by Raz

Ran across this article regarding electric vehicles, lithium ion batteries, and fire.

Electric vehicles and fire

This was something I was concerned about from the get go with battery powered vehicles. Though I have to admit I was more concerned about a catastrophic release of all the energy in the batteries at once, (BOOM). I am relieved that the process is more gradual than that.

The problem, as I see it, is that the battery contains all the chemistry required for a complete discharge. Conventional fuel requires external oxygen to release the contained energy. Keep the oxygen away from the fuel, and the energy release stops. How to accomplish this with batteries is a problem not yet solved.