New Electric F-150 and thoughts on electrification of Tow Vehicles

[RogerDat]

I recall someone who had a CPAP machine that they depended on and was exploring power options. Now a small generator is a whole lot less money than any new pickup truck but an electric vehicle could address that sort of need. Assuming they didn't draw down vehicle below charge required to get to nearest charging station.

As someone who has no shower in their camper I always get annoyed that I'm paying the same price as sister does for a site. She switches water heater to electric and sucks power while I'm buying shower tokens. I imagine the reverse will be the case with electric tow vehicle. Campgrounds will eventually need to consider their impact on the bottom line due to electric consumption on the parks dime. It shouldn't be an issue though as parks already have different rates for 30 amp or 50 amp service.

Long haul I think a plug in hybrid will fill the niche. Brother in law who is by no imagination tree hugger has one (Ford) and his cost for driving around town is greatly reduced since electrical power is cheaper than gasoline. Longer trips he just turns off the electric until he gets to the town that is his destination where electric again makes sense. Regenerative braking generally provides a decent add on charge from his highway trip.

Whomever said commercial use will be high is probably correct. Many companies could work with a 300 mile range. Aircraft it may be that Hydrogen or even a continued use of petroleum fuel will persist but I don't anticipate towing with an aircraft anytime soon. Although the way some folks drive I sometimes worry about finishing the trip being carried by angels.

The one way that electric vehicles can reduce pollution eventually is that being electric some portion of their fuel can come from renewables. Or nuclear, Hydro too. All less polluting than gasoline. So while switch to electric isn't a magic bullet it does offer an option that can reduce pollution. In the case of pollution less is really more... better.

It is also worth noting that China dominates rare earth materials production only because they produced it cheaper than other places so the market went there to meet demand at best price. USA and other contries have the materials and ability to meet that demand, just not the capacity. One does wonder if China will play this as the OPEC countries did, keep the price just low enough to discourage external competition while maintaining a majority share of the market. Processing plants and mining operations are a significant investment. If one makes that investment and the price suddenly drops due to a surplus of cheap supply it can make that investment a loss.

I'm not in the market, I would gladly purchase a plug in hybrid if one was available in the price range, wife like Prius she got as a loaner when her car was in the shop. For now these options are enough more costly that it isn't appealing to me. However as the OP said in post #1 the new technology does open up new possibilities which will be exciting and interesting to see them unfold.

Heck I can recall when solar was some weird nerd stuff and then it got to where you could by a $60 license plate size solar panel to keep a battery charged and now look at us. Flip out solar panels carried by tenters to charge our tablets and calculators that teachers told us we would never just have in our pocket when we wanted to do math. :-) I mean your mobile phone.

[Glenn Baglo]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ghts-1.5884479
A Vancouver seaplane company says its retro-fitted all electric airplane is set to take to the skies for more test flights this year, as it pushes forward with its plans to make commercial air travel cheaper and greener.
"There's no wavering in our confidence and determination and interest in getting this done," said Harbour Air CEO Greg McDougall.
Founded by McDougall in 1982, Harbour Air uses small propeller planes to fly commercial flights between the Lower Mainland, Seattle, Vancouver Island, the Gulf Islands and Whistler.
In the last few years it has turned its attention to becoming a leader in green urban mobility, which would do away with the need to burn fossil fuels for air travel.

[emers382]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

It is also worth noting that China dominates rare earth materials production only because they produced it cheaper than other places so the market went there to meet demand at best price. USA and other contries have the materials and ability to meet that demand, just not the capacity. One does wonder if China will play this as the OPEC countries did, keep the price just low enough to discourage external competition while maintaining a majority share of the market. Processing plants and mining operations are a significant investment. If one makes that investment and the price suddenly drops due to a surplus of cheap supply it can make that investment a loss.

Yes the US may have the materials but no doubt you're aware of NIMBYism when it comes to new mines, a problem they don't have in China.

[John in Santa Cruz]

batteries don't use rare earths. they use lithium, which is a light element. the so-called rare earths are used in optical glasses, as a metal alloying agent in very strong magnets, in semiconductors and LEDs, and so forth..

[CalCop]

Originally Posted by emers382

Hey Alex you've been around here for three years you must know how many threads go well away from the original post, oh look there's a squirrel...

But seriously despite all my misgivings regarding EV's I could potentially see one in our future, perhaps ten years down the road once we've finished camping and perhaps moved into a retirement facility of some sort but still wish to get out and about at least locally (shopping, visiting) as at that point we'd likely fly to visit family. By that point they should be more affordable with long lasting batteries and maintenance free.

Adrian

Those vehicles are called golf carts

[CarlD]

Rare earth elements are used to make the high efficiency permanent magnet motors used in EVs.

Here is an interesting thought on battery charging.
So you want to 80% charge a 100 kwh battery in 5 minutes (1/12 hour). You will need a 80,000 / (1/12) = 960000 watt supply. The Tesla model 3 battery voltage is 350 volt. For simplicity, lets assume it charges at 400 volts. You will need to supply 960000 / 400 = 2400 amps of current. I can't really see grandma plugging in the charge cord without some kind of help. But someone will figure it out some day.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by CarlD

Rare earth elements are used to make the high efficiency permanent magnet motors used in EVs.

Here is an interesting thought on battery charging.
So you want to 80% charge a 100 kwh battery in 5 minutes (1/12 hour). You will need a 80,000 / (1/12) = 960000 watt supply. The Tesla model 3 battery voltage is 350 volt. For simplicity, lets assume it charges at 400 volts. You will need to supply 960000 / 400 = 2400 amps of current. I can't really see grandma plugging in the charge cord without some kind of help. But someone will figure it out some day.

they would use significantly higher voltages to get around that. 4KV would be 240 amps for the same amount of watts.

[CarlD]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

they would use significantly higher voltages to get around that. 4KV would be 240 amps for the same amount of watts.

A 4000 volt battery brings another set of non-trivial issues. Its an engineering challenge!

[jhsdbvjhc]

I don't think towing will be the primary focus for Ford. Being an F-150 they have to at least mention it, but IMO they want to get EV F-150s into the hands of as many urban cowboys hauling some gold (2x4's from Lowe's) as possible, not RV enthusiasts. I expect it to be another 10 years for battery technology, charger infrastructure, solar panel efficiency, and AI to get them on par with gasoline towing range.

Tesla has a massive head start on the charging infrastructure. Hopefully down the line they all actually agree on a standard.

[threepine]

Rather than an electric vehicle pulling a trailer, why not a vehicle pulling an electric trailer that can assist uphill and recharge downhill and be self powered while camping?

[bpjod]

As to the OP's point, BEV tow vehicles certainly do have the potential to provide electricity to RVing in locations without electrical hookups. To put some perspective on this (with much rounding) a typical 6V deep cycle RV battery holds around 200 Ah of charge when fully charged. 6V x 200 Ah = 1,200 Wh. A pair of these batteries would provide 2,400 Wh of energy.

My Tesla Model 3's lifetime energy usage averages 170 Wh/km. That's including many thousands of kms with canoes, bikes, or roof box mounted to a roof rack. That's including driving in winter in northern Alberta. Let's say a BEV pickup truck uses twice the energy my Model 3 does. Then let's say towing an egg RV uses twice that. That's now 680 Wh/km. When reading about peoples' experiences towing Airstreams and the like with their Model X SUVs, that's right about the energy utilization they're seeing so these calculations seem to ring true.

So, 2,400 Wh / 680 Wh/km = 3.5 km (or 2.2 miles) of travel towing an RV. I last 4+ days on my pair of 6V deep cycle batteries. So for an additional 4 days in the backcountry without electrical hookups after I've depleted my RV's batteries, I lose 3.5 km of range on my tow vehicle.

Do you really think 3.5 km of range lost for 4 more days (8 total) camping is that a big of a deal? I don't. You can now do your own math to apply to your situation and power usage.

What is a big deal is having to charge so frequently when towing. So, 500 km range w/o an RV. That becomes 250 km range with RV. That becomes 200 km realistically as you don't drive until the battery is dead and you're stranded on the side of the highway. So, every 2 hours you'll be needing to charge.

Now, I do enjoy the breaks every once in awhile to charge, but with a trailer it's no longer as simple as backing in, plugging in and wandering off for 30-40 minutes. Few fast-charging locations are pull through. This means finding a spot to unhook and park the trailer, then charging, then re-hooking up the trailer before driving off again. Doing this every 2 hours would get annoying rather quickly. Also, the charging stop will be for a fair bit longer than the 30-40 minutes I'm accustomed to because the tow vehicle's battery pack will be roughly 2x as large as the battery in my Model 3 (75 kWh battery).

I do have a reservation in for a BEV tow vehicle, but mine is for a tow vehicle with 800 km range (without trailer). That will get me nearly twice as far down the road before I'm looking for somewhere to charge and half the number of charging stops on a long day of travel. That, I hope, will be acceptable to me and my wife.

[Alf S.]

Hi: RogerDat... At least you can say you had a "Token shower"!!!LoL
Alf S. North shore of Lake Erie

[bigangelman]

If you think the campground electric is bad now wait until people start plugging in electric vehicles! Did you know that in average city of there were 2 electric vehicles plugged in per block that will be enough the crash the electric grid? Go drive around the industrial side of town if yours has one and look at the heavy wires overhead. Now imagine that in front of your house! Just because you're not running an engine fueled by fossil fuel doesn't mean the power plant isn't. It just like people that buy meat in the grocery store don't think it's right on kill animals. But when you buy that hamburger at fast food or steak in the store you might as well have, your just paying someone else where you don't see it!

[Dbasdan]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Costco gas is significantly less than about everyone else. I believe there's one in Seaside.

PG is a lovely place, I lived there from 1977 to 1985 or so.

the fleeing thing is actually more noise than fact. yes, some very rich people have noisily moved away, often to Nevada, but those people live all around the world anyways.

I personally know dozens of families that have left California for a better place. S Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona and even more than a few to Tennessee and N Carolina. As a lifelong resident I totally understand why.

It has been decreed that California will have all electric vehicles within the next 10 years. Where's the infrastructure to support it?

[thumper-tx]

Change scares people and they fight it at every turn. Human nature I guess. A friend has a sport model Tesla. It is much faster than a Corvette, 0 to 60 mph, and has a 300 + mile range. Took it to a commercial charging station when the battery was low and it took about 1/2 hr to recharge. (Cost $6.50). Does that mean they are perfect for every application? No. However they will be great for many uses.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Dbasdan

I personally know dozens of families that have left California for a better place. S Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona and even more than a few to Tennessee and N Carolina. As a lifelong resident I totally understand why.

It has been decreed that California will have all electric vehicles within the next 10 years. Where's the infrastructure to support it?

Metastasis?
It seems that the people who flee oppressive taxes and regulations tend to vote for the same thing to be forced on their new home states...

Think Colorado.
Change by decree is still subject to reality. Ever read Kipling?
So when will they pass a "decree" in California to stop the earthquakes?
God makes paradise, men make it hell.

[David Tilston]

I have said this before, but it bears repeating. There are only three sources of electricity. Fossil fuels, (coal, diesel, petrel and gas) nuclear and renewable, (solar, wind, hydro...). That’s it.

Pick your poison. Fossil fuels cause global warming. Nuclear is expensive, and it produces a waste product that is very toxic, (understatement) for longer than people have been on this planet. Renewables are also expensive, and as far as hydro is concerned, mostly already exploited. Solar cells require quite a bit of energy to make. At one time this meant that they would consume more energy during manufacturing, than they would ever make. I assume this has changed. Wind power is high maintenance, and the turbines age out. Both solar and wind require large amounts of real-estate, when land is getting more and more valuable.

They are talking about making zero emission houses mandatory, no natural gas, all electric. This only moves the source of emissions to some other location.

The capacity of our current generation and distribution will need to be significantly increased, (doubled?) if combustion powered devices are to be eliminated. This will not be at a trivial cost. When I worked as a lineman for one of the power companies in Alberta, I was told that just the wire that conducts the electricity, costs more than all the other electrical infrastructure, (generators, poles, transformers, trucks……) combined.

What kind of trailer can I tow with my ten speed? What will the roads that I ride on be made of?

[rdickens]

Although it will likely create major disruption in the transportation industry, I personally look forward to the day when the drive wheels of most vehicles are turned by electric motors.

IIRC - Most (over three fourths?) of the energy contained in internal combustion engine (ICE) fuel is wasted and expelled as heat out the exhaust pipe and/or by air passing through the coolant radiator. Since electric motors contain less than one fourth of the moving parts of an ICE motor, they should be cheaper to manufacture and more reliable to operate.

IIRC - Since most of the railroad's "diesel locomotives" are actually "diesel-electric" (where the drive wheels are turned by electric motors and the diesel motor-generator is providing the needed electrical power), much of the nation's heaviest load towing is already being handled by electric motors.

Once the passenger vehicle drive wheels are also being turned by electric motors, it will simply be a matter of how to best provide power to the electric motor(s) for either local and/or long distance travel.

That could be accomplished by batteries, motor-generator sets, hydrogen fuel cells, and/or even solar panels (for slower stationary recharging), etc.

By using a lightweight slide-in motor-generator (think Honda EU2200 or Kubota diesel) to provide power for longer distance travel, the extra weight could be removed for local vehicle usage.

IIRC - Most of the maintenance budget for roads and interstate highways is currently provided by the fuel taxes on internal combustion engines (ICE) fuel. If most vehicles become EVs, they will likely have to change the way roadway maintenance funding is done.

If future EVs do not require oil/filter changes, air filter changes, complicated transmissions, spark-plug/muffler/catalytic-converter replacement, etc., vehicle dealerships and independent mechanics may have to change their current business/revenue models.

If/when we transition to EVs for personal/family mobility, it seems like there will likely be lots of changes!

Of course, I could be wrong about any/all of the above and YMMV!

Ray

[threepine]

Great post, Ray. I have made much of my living from the oil and gas industry and while it is not going to go away, I think the EV industry is going to be huge. I'm trying to take advantage by investing in a graphite mining stock as that's one of the major components of batteries, at least for the next ten years or so. Lithium too, of course.

[emers382]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

What kind of trailer can I tow with my ten speed?

Here you go David...
https://gearjunkie.com/biking/wide-path-bike-trailer