Plans to reduce the discount on Senior & Disabled Cards

[Jerry Chapman]

This is just another example of our Federal Government not taking care of what is ours to begin with, give it to a third party, and charge us more to use it. Then our representatives come home every two years and say they haven't raised taxes. The NFS only wants to be in the business of providing timber & minerals to major corporations. They want nothing to do with the small timber operator, and also want to get completely out of the recreation business. That is very apparent by the number of trails which have been closed and access routes blockaded in the last few years. Also, you can bet that if the Forest Service does it, the Nat Parks won't be far behind.

[Tom U]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, ok. Well now I just feel stupid, lol. Not sure in today's society the "honor system" would work too well unfortunately. I'd imagine folks of "questionable character" would take advantage of the situation and not deposit their fee.

Melissa,

No need to feel anything but informed - it is always great to ask... That's how we learn (an old dog speaks)

You are, unfortunately, correct about the honor system. Those who don't feed the Iron Ranger for day use usually get away with it, raising the costs for all of us who pay. In the campgrounds it is harder to get away with a free stay - the real rangers usually make rounds in the morning and check receipts. No receipt equals a visit and request for payment. If no one home, a note is left and, possibly, a citation.

[John H]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, ok. Well now I just feel stupid, lol. Not sure in today's society the "honor system" would work too well unfortunately. I'd imagine folks of "questionable character" would take advantage of the situation and not deposit their fee.

Melissa, to my knowledge the iron ranger honor system works well. The campgrounds are still patrolled as usual, but no full time host. A free loader might get by a few times, but this happens even with a host present. This system works well at many campgrounds all over north America and Canada. In 110 days of camping last summer, I used the iron ranger in ~80% of them. This was a mix of National and Forest service parks with a few state and BLM thrown in. Some of the best camp grounds we found were in the Yukon Territory Provencal campgrounds and there were no concessionaires, just the iron ranger. Even furnished all the wood you could burn. Total price was ~$12. USD.

We may have a few on the forum that have been a camp host and can tell us about the concessionaire/host and how it works. There are differences in services from one to another.

[Robin G]

As I said before I agree with Bobbie, Hey guys, as far as age I am there or should I say toooooooooo darn close! And just because I have worked my rear off all my life doesn't mean I am entitled to anything. I look at it like this, either I lose my future discount or the powers that be are gonna close campgrounds altogether and then none of us will have a place to camp. It's just reality! Now as I said before as well, I don't think discounts are the problem (but thats for another venue). So I look at it this way, take a smaller discount or let them close all the great camping spots? Hmmmmm, I think I will take a cut in my discount.




Raya, please empty your inbox..................

[floyd]

As I said before I agree with Bobbie, Hey guys, as far as age I am there or should I say toooooooooo darn close! And just because I have worked my rear off all my life doesn't mean I am entitled to anything. I look at it like this, either I lose my future discount or the powers that be are gonna close campgrounds altogether and then none of us will have a place to camp. It's just reality! Now as I said before as well, I don't think discounts are the problem (but thats for another venue). So I look at it this way, take a smaller discount or let them close all the great camping spots? Hmmmmm, I think I will take a cut in my discount.

Then why accept the discount at all?
In my home town, The state park has trippled the rate since last year, that puts me and mine in a commercial campground which are now competitively priced and offer more services and full hook-ups. I grew up in that park and love to stay there, but $20 a night without hookups and a $10 dump fee for a 13 Scamp is seriously pushing it!
It's a double insult with a "Motel 6" across the street offering rooms for $29!
Now, who says the government is more efficient than free enterprise??

[Perry J]

I live in the heart of the Sierra National Forest.
Our local citizenry is in a constant battle with the Forest Service. For the 5 years have lived here the locals have been trying to get an accounting of the River Access fees. These fees are to go back into the river access fund for local use. Yet we cannot get an accounting.
Areas with no services but classified as high use areas are on the list of areas to be charged for.
On the weekend of Oct. 17 and 18 of this year my youngest grandson and I camped at the lower Peppermint Campground on the Sierra National Forest. The daily rate went to $16.00 this year.
There were no door handles or locks on the pit toilets. The weeds were overgrown, fire pits were full of trash but the camp was full.
I have been going to this campground for 5 years and the FS has not done one thing to maintain it. Not once in the entire weekend did a FS employees come through the campground. I called the District Ranger and asked how they could justify doubling the rate while doing nothing to maintain or improve the campground. She had no answer.
I told her if she supplied a flat bed truck, 2 young strong guys with weed eaters and a chain saw I would go up there and have her a campground to be proud of in one day. She thanked me for volunteering and said she would call me and discuss when and were. It's been 3 months and she hasn't called.
I mentioned the lack of handles and locks on the pit toilets. She thanked me for volunteering and said she would get in touch with me.
The following weekend I camped there again and to my surprise there were no pay envelopes at the entrance and the campground was again full. That cost the FS about $1000.00. There were screen door eye and hook latches and handles on the toilet doors.
The people in the spot next to me had been camping there for the last 20 years. They told me this would be their last year at Peppermint Campground as it had just deteriorated to much. They said nothing had been done to maintain the campground in all the years they had been going there.
It has been years since they have graded the dirt roads into the dispersed camping areas. Roads that once could be driven in the family station wagon now are almost 4x4 roads.
With additional and ever rising fees and no maintenance of facilities or roads the FS is intentionally limiting our access.
I mentioned how the FS was beginning to limit our access into the forest earlier this year and some of you thought I was crazy.
Did you know that this year alone there have been another 11 Wilderness Areas created from California to Lake Superior. These were areas open to vehicles and dispersed camping in the past. Now you can only ride a horse or hike through them.
Some of you have camped on the Kern River and Lake Isabella. I bet you didn't realize there are 7 Wilderness Areas within 30 to 50 miles of here. Wilderness area's are no longer vast tracts of land far away from any civilization, they are now in your backyard.
The environmentalists with the aid of this administration is in the process of closing vast tracts of forest to recreational use with the use of a Wilderness Area designation.
I am not trying to be political, I am just stating facts as one that is fortunate enough to live in the middle of a beautiful National Forest.
I have been to many open meetings with the FS in the past years and all they have done is blow smoke.
If you would like to keep track of State and Federal legislation you might want to look into the Blue Ribbon Commission. It's an organization that is a coalition of campers, hikers, equestrians, boaters, off roaders, hunters, fishermen, atv and dirt bike riders and anyone else that enjoys the great outdoors.
You don't have to join to sign up for their alerts on pending legislation. You can sign up just for your state or all of the pending legislation. They have offices in Washington DC and keep up any and all legislation affecting anyone that enjoys the outdoors. They also have a battery of attorneys that are always fighting for our rights.
sharetrails.org will get you to the Blue Ribbon Commission website.
I'm sorry this is so long. I want my grandchildren and yours to respect, love and enjoy the forests, mountains and deserts as much as I do.
Unless we do something very quickly we are going to lose most of most of our recreational areas.
John

[Robin G]

Then why accept the discount at all?
In my home town, The state park has trippled the rate since last year, that puts me and mine in a commercial campground which are now competitively priced and offer more services and full hook-ups. I grew up in that park and love to stay there, but $20 a night without hookups and a $10 dump fee for a 13 Scamp is seriously pushing it!
It's a double insult with a "Motel 6" across the street offering rooms for $29!
Now, who says the government is more efficient than free enterprise??

I totally agree, it's messed up! But that still doesn't entitle me to any discount. Sorry that's how I feel. Our society is screwed up, but until "those" who take and take (and I am not talking camping seniors here! or the goverment) get a reality check, which will take the American people saying enough than it will continue to be that way.

[melissab]

Well that's good news that the parks are still patrolled. I thought the "iron ranger" was an icon of days gone by. I never thought about campgrounds not having a full time attendant. We have yet to partake in a public campground of any sorts. Great information when planning our trip to Wyoming next summer. I'll be sure and carry cash to feed the "Ranger", lol. Do the state/national parks close over the winter or is that mainly a private/commercial campground deal. My folks are traveling right now from WY to AZ and have said they are having a difficult time finding places to stay. All the campground signs on the Interstate say "Closed Nov 1". I was just wondering if this usually applies to all campgrounds (obviously not in the warmer states) or if the State/National Parks are still open.

Melissa

Melissa, to my knowledge the iron ranger honor system works well. The campgrounds are still patrolled as usual, but no full time host. A free loader might get by a few times, but this happens even with a host present. This system works well at many campgrounds all over north America and Canada. In 110 days of camping last summer, I used the iron ranger in ~80% of them. This was a mix of National and Forest service parks with a few state and BLM thrown in. Some of the best camp grounds we found were in the Yukon Territory Provencal campgrounds and there were no concessionaires, just the iron ranger. Even furnished all the wood you could burn. Total price was ~$12. USD.

We may have a few on the forum that have been a camp host and can tell us about the concessionaire/host and how it works. There are differences in services from one to another.

[floyd]

I totally agree, it's messed up! But that still doesn't entitle me to any discount. Sorry that's how I feel. Our society is screwed up, but until "those" who take and take (and I am not talking camping seniors here! or the goverment) get a reality check, which will take the American people saying enough than it will continue to be that way.

Robin ;
If you read my first comment on this subject, you will see that I was not talking about any entitlement....
.......But then, maybe the proposed suicide counseling every 5 years will solve that pesky Senior discount thing by itself. ("screwed up" ain't the half of it!)

[Robin G]

Floyd, Since when is a discount about age respect? Don't understand why you would think a discount shows sign of respect. The senior discount concept (though discounts have been offered through out history) gained momentum to break the cycle of the seniors of the 60's and 70's whom spent years and years pinching pennies to get out and spend some of their wad.

I am of the believe that we earn respect, I don't just think that because I am of a certain age I should be respected. ( Not all old people are respectable) As well as not all young people are disrespectful.


Heres the definition of discounts as found in Wikipedia:

The purpose of discounts is to increase short-term sales, move out-of-date stock, reward valuable customers, encourage distribution channel members to perform a function, or otherwise reward behaviors that benefit the discount issuer.[



Raya your inbox is fulllllllllll

[John H]

This was the 1965 policy...
such fees were governed by the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act of 1965

quote
"Under previous policy, offering lifetime passes and substantial discounts to seniors and the
disabled was a way of honoring their contributions to our nation and ensuring them access to the benefits of outdoor recreation."

The word discount is used to describe a way of honoring, maybe we are not to be honored anymore.

for a plain english click this link
http://www.westernslopenofee.org/pdfupload...r_Discounts.pdf

[Perry J]

I am an over the hill senior that has worked my butt of all my life. I have sent 2 of my blood sons to college as well as 2 of my foster sons. I have never received a dollar of public assistance in my entire life. And I had enough respect for my seniors that I would never begrudge them a discount.
As person that has paid more than his far share in income taxes over a 65 year period I think the government owes me a little something for contributing to the welfare of those who did not work as hard as I did. What is it going to cost you?
Nothing! I am pushing 70, if am lucky enough to stay in FS pay campgrounds for another 125 days it would save me about $1000.00. That's nothing to the government.
I have a paid for home which is very lucky because I lost over half of my savings last Sept. Interest is nothing on a savings account now. I have my Social Security as my income now. There are a lot of seniors in much worse shape than I am now.
Those people that are driving those million dollar rigs are the ones that pay most of the of the income tax collected by our government. Almost 50% of Americans pay no income tax today.
As far as I am concerned those million dollar rig drivers are entitled to take the discount if they want to. They paid a hell of a lot more towards the upkeep of our forests than anyone else.
Last year I would not have minded the raise in the cost to seniors but now if the costs are now raised it will limit my camping.
As I said before it is not money. It is the FS limiting our access to the forest with ever increasing fees and not maintaining facilities or roads in the forest.
John

[Robin G]

This was the 1965 policy...
such fees were governed by the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act of 1965

quote
"Under previous policy, offering lifetime passes and substantial discounts to seniors and the
disabled was a way of honoring their contributions to our nation and ensuring them access to the benefits of outdoor recreation."

The word discount is used to describe a way of honoring, maybe we are not to be honored anymore.

for a plain english click this link
http://www.westernslopenofee.org/pdfupload...r_Discounts.pdf

[b]

It doesn't say it's taking the discount away, so "you" will still be honored. They just want to lower the discount. Again, I have to ask, Are you willing to take a cut in your discount or do you wanna lose campgrounds all together? You choose!

[DonDeutsch]

Well I am nearly old enough for the senior discount but I don't really think I support it. Ther is no way to do a income based pricing so what I would like to see is pricing based on size (length probably best) of the rig you bring in.

[floyd]

Floyd, Since when is a discount about age respect? Don't understand why you would think a discount shows sign of respect. The senior discount concept (though discounts have been offered through out history) gained momentum to break the cycle of the seniors of the 60's and 70's whom spent years and years pinching pennies to get out and spend some of their wad.

I am of the believe that we earn respect, I don't just think that because I am of a certain age I should be respected. ( Not all old people are respectable) As well as not all young people are disrespectful.


Heres the definition of discounts as found in Wikipedia:

The purpose of discounts is to increase short-term sales, move out-of-date stock, reward valuable customers, encourage distribution channel members to perform a function, or otherwise reward behaviors that benefit the discount issuer.[



[b]Raya your inbox is fulllllllllll

Now that you have proven my point more eloquently than I could hope to, this can be my last word on the subject.
Regards; Floyd

[John H]

[b]

It doesn't say it's taking the discount away, so "you" will still be honored. They just want to lower the discount. Again, I have to ask, Are you willing to take a cut in your discount or do you wanna lose campgrounds all together? You choose!

Sorry, but I don't understand your premise... "Are you willing to take a cut in your discount or do you wanna lose campgrounds all together?" I have seen nothing in the proposal that indicates the campgrounds are to be closed. The sky is not falling, all this has to do with is concessionaire requests, not park closings. The 50%discounts will be honored at non concessionaire operated parks regardless of this proposal.

And if you have a paper Golden Age pass, flip it over and read the back side and decide for yourself what is proper.

[BAMA & Pachyderm Posse]

Robin I hate this [ what if ] the goverment was to take away 40% of tax duct, from every one that is not 65 yet because they havent payed taxes long enough to get a discount , and use the money to pay concessionaire requests,. would that work ?

[Robin G]

Now that you have proven my point more eloquently than I could hope to, this can be my last word on the subject.
Regards; Floyd

So you think I have proven your point, because I don't agree with your point of view? So then I become one of the, as you said " changing population"? Maybe in your eyes but not in mine. I understand that you feel that after all of your years of hard work you deserve a break. But I see all my hardworking tax paying years as contributing to the society in-which I live. Which in my belief doesn't entitle me to a discount. It would be nice, but I understand that businesses have to change at times to keep surviving. So in order to keep doing business they got to cut some corners, and again are not totally taking the discount away just redefining the way they discount. [b]I am in no way defending the way our tax dollars are spent! But as I have said before in the topic, it's for another venue not this forum. It takes all of us, young and old a like to keep our country surviving, thriving, growing, till the day they put us on the other side of the dirt. And though I don't like how "they" work most of the time I certainly don't see another place better to live. And until or unless I am willing to bang some heads to make "them" do it my way (which in my opinion would be a better way) I have to go along with our changing world. That is not being dis-repectful it's just being a citizen of our society.





John, I didn't say that they are closing campgrounds because of this "Plan to reduce". (Though there have been campground closings topic's here before) my point is, They are trying to find ways to make "their business plan work" Again, don't agree! but [b]eventually if their business changes don't work, budget cuts etc will force more closings. We as campers have already seen the poor neglect of many campgrounds due to cut backs and what ever else "they" wanna call it. For me common sense tell's me eventually they will shut more and more down because it cost to much for them to maintain. So for me, I am willing to lose a portion of a discount to keep the campground open.

And seniors will still get their respect/honor if they stay in a non concessionaire campground. See they are not taking the discount away! Only changing the way they discount. All businesses at some point have to change their way of doing business to keep in business.

[Robin G]

Robin I hate this [ what if ] the goverment was to take away 40% of tax duct, from every one that is not 65 yet because they havent payed taxes long enough to get a discount , and use the money to pay concessionaire requests,. would that work ?

I guess Herschel I don't really understanding what your asking. (sorry) But I will try and reply with my opinion of what I think your asking. Hmmmmm, 40% percent of under 65 tax deductions. In my opinion there are so few tax deductions I was ever entitled to that 40% of nothing wouldn't get them very far.

I suppose if you go by the premises that discounts are a "right" as a citizen, then your feelings would be valid. But to my knowledge they are a gift. Heck, as a citizen our rights are taking away all the time, so I guess that "gifts" can be taken just as easily.


[b]Discounts are not a assurance in this life,
But be assured Taxes are!

[BAMA & Pachyderm Posse]

Boy is this a can of worms .! I am 66 years old & disabled veteran seems the first place to go when money is needed is take if from The old,disabled ,disabled veterans,