Propane Hoses Hold Cylinders All The Way Through Wreck

[Raz]

Give it a try. A few years ago I made the same statement, manual operation did not trigger the brake lights, only to be corrected. Apparently some brake controllers will activate the lights. What activates the controller during automatic operation is typically the light switch signal on the pedal. On some controllers the controller sends a signal through the switch to turn on the lights when manual control is activated. I believe Prodigy 2 will do this. Raz

[David Tilston]

I use a 33.5 lb, horizontal, aluminum, forklift, propane tank. With 2 brackets that circle the tank, and bolt to the tongue, I doubt it is going anywhere.

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

Hope I didn't misspeak on this one... My understanding, based on reading, not actual experience with wiring, is the trailer brake lights are powered from the vehicle brake light circuit, which is powered by a switch on the brake pedal. No pedal movement equals no brake lights. My information may be outdated, as new vehicles have so many systems tied into a computer now, including trailer brake wiring in many cases. For example, do brake lights come on when the electronic stability system applies brake(s) without pedal input? (That would be hard to check... I have had ESC activate, but I was distracted trying to get tug and trailer up a steep grade on a loose surface to even wonder about brake lights!)

Always open to new information!

Jon, thinking about this (always a dangerous proposition for me!) I think you are correct.

1) The P3 brake controller has four wiring connections, including power and ground which we can basically ignore. The vehicle's brake light wire serves as the controller's input and the trailer's brake magnet wire serves as the output, so that's the four connections.

2) The controller operation modulates the output voltage based on its accelerometer circuitry; this is the proportional part.

3) If the controller were to also energize the trailer connection's two turn signal wires to serve as a brake signal, (which it doesn't), then any trailer light which was being simultaneously operated as a turn signal by the vehicle would not continue to flash, so that would not be an acceptable design.

4) If manual operation of the controller were to send an output to the vehicle's brake wiring, then it would have to be isolated such that it didn't serve as the brake controller's input signal, essentially acting as a latching circuit to hold the controller in the "actuated" position.

Given that the vehicle's wiring is now generally CanBus protocol, with many connections now basically logic outputs in lieu of hard-wired connections, it may be more complicated than "if=>then" on the vehicle side. However, it does seem to me that if the brake controller were to actuate the trailer's brake lights, it would need to depend on a more sophisticated logic within the vehicle in order to do so.

At least I think so...

PS: I did confirm that the Audi's cruise control operated the brake lights when it applied the brakes. It's all within the realm of possibility here. I think it's just a question whether the vehicle manufacturer were to incorporate the capability. I don't think the current four-wire connection scheme on the brake controller could do it without some assist from the vehicle side.

[Paul O.]

I hope my statement is not the equivalent of kicking the hornets nest, but I say the guy rested the tanks on the tongue, did not torque the hold down properly or not at all, and put the cover on. I would hope that the accident investigator would look at that possibility, but we shall never know. The human capacity to screw up should never be underestimated.

[Borrego Dave]

Originally Posted by Paul O.

I hope my statement is not the equivalent of kicking the hornets nest, but I say the guy rested the tanks on the tongue, did not torque the hold down properly or not at all, and put the cover on. I would hope that the accident investigator would look at that possibility, but we shall never know. The human capacity to screw up should never be underestimated.

Don't see any nests kicked Paul . I do think the comment made of the tongues A frame twisting probably was the cause of the tanks coming off, torqued or not. A cable through the tanks handles and around the frame, as someone suggested, would have kept them from flying around at the end of the hoses. Hard to say though as every accident has different forces at work.

[Daniel A.]

I'd say the only thing that kept the trailer connected was the use of chains the A frame right at the end can be seen pulled far away from the tug the coupler would not be able to cope with that much stress but the chains would wrap around and hold it.

My Bigfoot uses steel rods to hold the propane tanks to the frame, if nothing else the clip shows why one should always make sure the tanks are not left open traveling.

[Glenn Baglo]

I think the clip shows, if nothing else, why one shouldn't stand next to a highway, or drive in an adjacent lane.

[Gordon in Idaho]

Lee asks:
"My real question is this: are there any set-ups with a positive attachment, i.e., the tank(s) are bolted directly to the A-frame or bolted to something that is bolted/welded to the A-frame? Would you even want that? Perhaps it is better for the tanks to move than to deform. Don't know, though... you surely wouldn't want them to detach completely and go rolling across the highway into traffic, bouncing off a bridge, etc."

I was involved in an accident on a four lane interstate back in May where my propane tank wound up about 150 yards down the road, resting against a concrete barrier. I was relieved that no one was hurt and I was alive. That was the only good news in the incident.
The front triangle of the frame had to be rebuilt, so I had the welder fashion a square base of angle iron fitted for a milk crate. The crate is bolted to the square and the square is welded to the frame. The tank fits perfectly in the crate and a compression strap holds the tank down. I also built a new and sturdier battery box connected to frame in the same way (I almost lost my batteries, too).
The new frame is much heavier than the original and the cross pieces are structural.

Gordon

P.S. The propane connection broke at the plastic hand-tightening knob.

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by Daniel A.

I'd say the only thing that kept the trailer connected was the use of chains the A frame right at the end can be seen pulled far away from the tug the coupler would not be able to cope with that much stress but the chains would rap around and hold it.

Oh der, safety chains! I hereby officially retract my previous, er, foolish statement "guessing the coupler and other steel parts deformed to accommodate the twisting"!

I guess the nice thing about the obvious is that it will generally eventually become obvious, even to me.

[Kip in Ga.]

In days of yore, We put many miles on our 78 G20 Chevy van, towing campers, of 15 feet in the beginning to 30 feet at the end of many campers and many years. The control was indeed hydraulically activated by a "T" on the master cylinder.

That was how most or maybe all my camping acquaintance's tugs were set up.
Although seems there were a few campers with surge brakes or none at all.

We learned either through experimenting or fireside chats to be well acquainted with that lever on the controller. My situation was double jeopardy because the Van liked to sway, as did the box shaped campers in heavy cross winds and/or 18 wheelers. The drill was to be ready to apply the trailer brakes, with that lever, when approached by an 18 wheeler from either direction. And always watching for signs of cross winds.

Extra throttle would also keep sway from occurring. It was just a bit slower than the brakes.

Occasionally there are traction events that could be better handled if the lever is used. Especially on declines.

FWIW the only camper we had in those years that exhibited virtually no sway was an early 70's 26' Argosy (Airstream). That thing was incredible! Would like to have it back.

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by mary and bob

Mike, I still have a couple of those old brake controllers, the ones with the lever. They were made to connect into the hydraulic brake line, using a T fitting at the master cylinder. Or you could just wire it in and manually operate the brakes with the lever, sorta like the trolley brake on tractor trailer rigs.

Originally Posted by Kip in Ga.

In days of yore, We put many miles on our 78 G20 Chevy van, towing campers, of 15 feet in the beginning to 30 feet at the end of many campers and many years. The control was indeed hydraulically activated by a "T" on the master cylinder.

That was how most or maybe all my camping acquaintance's tugs were set up.
Although seems there were a few campers with surge brakes or none at all.

We learned either through experimenting or fireside chats to be well acquainted with that lever on the controller. My situation was double jeopardy because the Van liked to sway, as did the box shaped campers in heavy cross winds and/or 18 wheelers. The drill was to be ready to apply the trailer brakes, with that lever, when approached by an 18 wheeler from either direction. And always watching for signs of cross winds.

Extra throttle would also keep sway from occurring. It was just a bit slower than the brakes.

Occasionally there are traction events that could be better handled if the lever is used. Especially on declines.

FWIW the only camper we had in those years that exhibited virtually no sway was an early 70's 26' Argosy (Airstream). That thing was incredible! Would like to have it back.

Thinking about this, I remember that the brake controller was apparently closely integrated with an 8-track tape player. The combination seemed dependent on playing Johnny Cash and a limited number of contemporary country artists. The neighbor owned a sheetrock business. As kids we would clean the scraps out of houses, load them into the bed, and ride on top the pile to the dump where we off-loaded. We all rode directly behind the protection of the cab for safety when on public roads, of course. I think about the only crew cabs pickups in those days were railroad trucks; they were rare. The neighbor's truck had an automatic transmission, which made it clearly made it very top-of-the-line with no-expense-spared.

Our pay as 10-year-olds was strict union scale, consisting of lunch at McDonald's; a 17-cent hamburger or 20-cents with cheese as best I recall. Heck, we could even order a milk-shake instead of a measly soda pop. We had all the swagger of crews coming in off the oil rigs.

The neighbors also had a giant (21"?) color television around which we would gather for the Indianapolis 500 and special movies like 'Sink the Bismark', which was actually black and white but looked better on a color TV. They were clearly very wealthy almost beyond all imagining! With eight kids, their house naturally was always the favored gathering place for five or six additional kids from the neighborhood.

Oh well, I digress.