Propane On or Off while Travelling

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Cathy

My guess is that they did not know the law and/or told you what they thought you wanted to hear.

From The Canadian Propane Association, "In most provinces, it's law that all appliances and pilot lights must be turned off and cylinder valves closed while travelling."

I think it's hilarious - and disturbing - that anyone would take a single comment from a single non-authoritative organization over a consistent set of responses from government authorities, which are supported by specific references to regulations.

The next line on the Propane Safety page of the Canadian Propane Association webpage after that statement is

Contact the provincial Motor Vehicle Branch where you own, rent or operate an R.V. or camper to inquire about requirements that may apply to you.

Jim did as they advised, and reported the results, yet his information was dismissed. I know which information I have assessed as credible... and whose disrespectful posts to ignore in the forum.

[rgrugg]

The fridge in our EggCamper is electric (12 volt) but it's a compressor fridge. In cold weather the furnace will be on (memory foam mattress gets like concrete if it's cold). In warm weather the furnace is off.

[Brian M. in NY]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

I think it's a bit odd that so many users worry about LP leaks while traveling, yet don't worry about sleeping in the trailer that night with the propane ON, the furnace running and a pilot burning in the refrigerator.

I also have an LP Gas detector, carbon monoxide detector and, smoke detector that give me a little piece of mind. Admittedly, they came installed as standard equipment on the ParkLiner but if I had an older rig, I would, at least, install a CO/smoke detector.

[Bob Miller]

LP Detectors are helpful when your unit has been closed up for a while, but with LP gas being heavier than air and most LP lines and fittings being inside cabinets, and behind appliances I think that most detectors would go off just after the Big Bang.....

But, then again, I don't worry about it.

[Brian M. in NY]

Hence, my previous "Go modern, Go gas, Go Boom!" comment. I'm of the notion that a CO/smoke detector is probably a good idea. My tanks are always off when the rig is parked at home. And when rolling.

[Cathi]

Jim, looking at what people have given you, what I see again is nothing to show that RVs are exempt from having the propane valves off.

For starters, as you see from what someone gave you, propane is to be off when travelling under a Transport Canada regulation. That would cover the whole country, I assume.

Then I see a person trying to make an exception fit RVs. It looks as if he has given his very bad interpretation of the regulation. The word "necessary" in my book obviously does not apply to RV refrigerators. The regulation was likely written with large commercial trucks in mind that carry tons of food where refrigeration is necessary or similar circumstances with regard to heating and other matters. Others have told you that there is no problem but don't say where they got that idea.

Were there an exception for RVs, I would expect to see something simple such as, "RVs are exempt.". It is interesting to find the exact opposite conclusion on this very regulation given on a site called SmartDrive BC. They said that it is illegal to have the propane on and they did not try to claim that the info your source cited was somehow an RV exception.

And, no, I am not talking conspiracy but well-meaning people who do not know the law or cannot understand what they are reading. Or can't find it and assume such a thing does not exist.

In any case, I assure you that I do not keep the propane off because of any law. It is just plain common sense. And if you read the information again, you will see that propane is referred to as a dangerous substance and is regulated in various ways as such. You are trying to make a case for transporting a dangerous substance in a less safe manner. There is just no case to be made the way I see it. So you can see what you see and others will see something quite opposite.

[Bob Miller]

In the 48 lower provinces this has been discussed endlessly and I have never seen a U.S. state law prohibiting having the LP gas ON in an RV while driving, an observation that AAA agrees with as well. (Of course, well known exemptions exist, such as certain tunnels etc. )

While some may want to argue that it is or isn't safe, the apparent fact is that it's not illegal and, by default, not considered unsafe by U.S. regulatory agencies.

But then again, the government also indicates, by the provisions of the Second Ammendment, that certain other activities are not unsafe, but that's a different arguement.

[lpk49]

after reading this thread i dont think i am so crazy to want to be propane free. my casita does have the gas detector low to the ground...but still. the only time i used it was the day the guy who checked out the camper for me showed me how. gradually i got things so they work only on elec. and i sleep better that way. but then-i dont have to stay for long periods of time without being hooked up.

[Glenn Baglo]

I guess my question is why would it be safe to travel with the propane on, unless you are in a tunnel or on a ferry?

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Cathy

Jim, looking at what people have given you, what I see again is nothing to show that RVs are exempt from having the propane valves off.

I'd be interested to hear which authorities are to be accepted if not those posted earlier by Jim Bennett-?

Per restrictions on ferries/tunnels etc.:

Portable fuel containers such as gas cans are also restricted on ferries but allowed on vehicles elsewhere.

Restrictions in tunnels and on ferries probably have to do with reducing as far as possible the risks inherent in situations where people are densely packed together with very restricted means of escape.

[Brian M. in NY]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

I guess my question is why would it be safe to travel with the propane on, unless you are in a tunnel or on a ferry?

I'm guessing that cold milk trumps safety if you have insufficient battery/alternator capacity to operate a 3-way fridge on 12vdc for an extended period. An absorption refrigerator uses heat to operate, regardless of the mode. Thus in 12vdc mode, the fridge is going to be pulling about 6.25 amps to drive the 75 watt heating element. Not an insignificant amount. If your tugs alternator doesn't have the capacity to recharge the rv's battery(ies), it is going to deplete the tug's battery until... yep, dead battery. A compressor fridge uses less power but doesn't have the propane option, so again the battery capacity is the limiting factor. My Norcold 12vdc/120vac in my teardrop will run about 12 - 14 hrs on battery before the battery requires recharging - about 2 hours on generator. I wouldn't dare try that on the Dometic three way in my PL, even with dual batteries. On the road, 12vdc. But I have a high cap alternator. Camped 120vac or propane depending on availability of shore power.
The short answer is, safety doesn't change much on a ferry or in a tunnel from what it is on the open road. If you haven't got the battery/alternator capacity, you may want to consider modifying your behavior, i.e. buying a cooler and a couple bags of ice to keep things cool until you set up camp.

[Ron in BC]

I was interested to note that when I delivered an RV for CruiseAmerica earlier this year that the propane use instructions were basically: turn on tank at the start and except during refueling, turn off tank when returning the vehicle to the depot.

They have experience with tens of thousands of units, and probably with some good legal advice, don't worry about the propane valve being open while traveling.

Personally I've always turned it off if I didn't have a reason to leave it on.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

I guess my question is why would it be safe to travel with the propane on, unless you are in a tunnel or on a ferry?

Because propane is more dense than air, so it accumulates in low places. Enclosed ferries, tunnels, and underground parking structures are thus good example of places were propane presents more danger than outside... that's why RV propane tanks must be closed in ferries and tunnels, and why propane-powered vehicles are generally not allowed in parkades.

Originally Posted by Brian M. in NY

The short answer is, safety doesn't change much on a ferry or in a tunnel from what it is on the open road.

Sure it does - see above.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Restrictions in tunnels and on ferries probably have to do with reducing as far as possible the risks inherent in situations where people are densely packed together with very restricted means of escape.

While the specific propane rules are more likely due to propane pooling in low places, I think the above is a valid point too.

[Brian M. in NY]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Because propane is more dense than air, so it accumulates in low places. Enclosed ferries, tunnels, and underground parking structures are thus good example of places were propane presents more danger than outside... that's why RV propane tanks must be closed in ferries and tunnels, and why propane-powered vehicles are generally not allowed in parkades.


Sure it does - see above.

The level of danger changes. I think safety is a mindset and a decision to follow best practices to reduce that danger.

[Carol H]

Coming from a marine industry I can confirm both Brian’s are correct in regards to why propane tanks need to be shut off while on a ferry. It is in everyone's best interest to reduce all risks and there are very real risks with having propane lines left open on trailers while onboard a ship.

An onboard fire is every worst dream come true for every crew member of a ship & they are to be avoided if at all possible, as is any incident that requires the ship to do an emergency evacuation. Every crew member who has ever done an actual emergency evacuation knows well that even if the only people of the ship are all fully trained and have practiced an evacuation many times, it will never go as fast or as well as one might have thought it would. Add to that hundreds of passengers who have no training at all and you have a pretty good idea as to how well in reality the evacuation is going to go.

There are a number of reasons why an open propane tank is a dangerous thing to have on a ferry but here are just a few that I can think of:

For starters since the sinking of the Ms Herald of Free Enterprise in 1987 when 193 people lost their lives any ferry of a certain size and configuration must close their bow and stern doors during the voyage. The reason for this is that it actually takes *very* little free flowing water on the car deck of many of the ferries used around the world today to make them very unstable. The closing of the doors on the car decks results in an enclosed space and any possibility of propane leakage in an enclosed space is never a good thing.

Secondly, car & trailer fires do happen for many reasons - even after the car engines have been shut off. Having an open supply of fuel for the fire (which is what an open leaking propane tank can be) is never a good thing - it makes putting out the fire fast a very hard thing to do & often results in a fire spreading faster.

Thirdly and probably the most probable event that could happen is that ferries from time to time are known to bump into hard unmovable objects resulting in cars & trailers being tossed around on the car deck. Its bad enough to hear the first big bang generated when a ship makes contact with another hard object but what you don't want to hear is more explosions resulting from a open propane tank having taken a big hit - the belief is a propane tank is less likely to explode or cause a fire when subjected to an impact if its shut off vs one that is open.

Accidents with ferries do happen on a fairly frequent basis and many people have been injured or killed as a result of them. First one recorded here by BC Ferries happened in 1970 when a freighter collided with a ferry in a narrow pass, killing 3 people. The most recent BC Ferries hard landing incident that caused a lot of damage but no one hurt happen in Dec 2011. But in 2006 BC Ferries had an incident that result in the actual sinking of the ferry - causing two people to lose their lives. Not to mention the many other hard landing incidents recorded between 1970 and today. Yet most in the marine industry would suggested that based on the size of the fleet, condition of the ships and the number of voyages that are done each year it is in fact a very safe ferry system. Accidents are called accidents for a reason and any time you have the humans factor or reliant on something mechanical they will happen. Washington State Ferries BTW although a much smaller fleet has also had its fair share of hard landings and collisions etc over the years as well.

Ferry accidents do in fact happen, so the rule to shut off all propane tanks is not just the result of someone being overly cautious.

[Bob Miller]

Well... that certainly takes care of the "LP on Ferries" question..

As I could list at least 20 things that "might" happen in the first 100 feet of travel, if we have to be completely safe about everything, it would be difficult to even leave the driveway with our MFRV's in tow.

Two years ago I was one of the lucky ones to have lav ice drop off of a passing airplane and punch a hole in my patio cover, but that doesn't keep me from going outside because of a fear of falling black ice.....

Every day living itself is a calculated risk and I, for one, will not reduce my enjoyment of life living in fear of each and every possibility that "could" happen.

Life is to enjoy, not to live in fear.....

[Francesca Knowles]

I didn't think shutting the tank off on ferries (or other times when instructed to do so) was controversial, even among those of us that leave them on most of the rest of the time- but thanks for the history, Carol!


Francesca

[Glenn Baglo]

Just to bend the topic a little, even though the instruction manual for my BBQ says to turn the gas off at the tank, I don't.
But, I turn it off at the trailer for travel.
Then again, I'm not expecting my BBQ to get rear-ended by a semi.

[Francesca Knowles]

It seems like the fear is a busted line spewing propane all over creation...why not just install a passive shutdown device at the tank and fahgeddabouddit?

Francesca