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Old 02-09-2020, 10:17 PM   #21
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Name: Scott
Trailer: Toyota Dolphin
Anchorage
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Alaska's BLM opportunities are great. After hearing how idiots had cut down Joshua Trees just because there was a government shutdown...I expect to see a mess but suffer fools poorly.
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Old 02-12-2020, 11:56 AM   #22
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Name: bob
Trailer: Was A-Liner now 13f Scamp
Missouri
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interest comment

Let's not blame any politician for that matter with this mess. There have always been folks like this I knew of them in my early life they had children.

Nothing has changed except got worse you can agree or disagree but you cannot legislate things on people to expect change it wont happen. I like to camp I don't have an expensive rig I know people here and others that do.

To think politicians are in the stream now that will look at an Oliver and want to take it away.

Be aware who you support in this day! All the politics I am going to get involved with but I like everything I have how little it is!

bob
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Old 02-12-2020, 01:51 PM   #23
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Name: Penny
Trailer: Scamp
Montana
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I agree with Jon and would be happy to drive from Havasu to Quartzsite to help with an organized clean up next year. Living in Havasu 6 months a year we have been active with desert clean up through the Havasu 4 Wheelers and the BLM. The BLM provides giant green dumpsters, grabers and large heavy duty bags to put the trash into. We start by 9 am and are done by noon. The giant green dumpsters are filled, but we have a large club with lots of Jeeps and etc.
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Old 02-12-2020, 04:06 PM   #24
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Name: Alexander
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1300
New Hampshire
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I don't think people are better or worse now than they were 50 years ago. I just think the total number of jerks has increased with the increase in population. In 1970 there were 203,000,000 people in the US. That number is now estimated to be 329,000,000 a difference of an addition 126,000,000 people. If you use the 10% rule(10% are angels, 10% are devils and the other 80% are in between) you get an additional 126,000 jerks running around screwing it up for the rest of us!
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:13 PM   #25
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Name: bob
Trailer: Was A-Liner now 13f Scamp
Missouri
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on the money

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Originally Posted by Alex Adams View Post
I don't think people are better or worse now than they were 50 years ago. I just think the total number of jerks has increased with the increase in population. In 1970 there were 203,000,000 people in the US. That number is now estimated to be 329,000,000 a difference of an addition 126,000,000 people. If you use the 10% rule(10% are angels, 10% are devils and the other 80% are in between) you get an additional 126,000 jerks running around screwing it up for the rest of us!
Alex remember free government cheese and how funny we thought it was. Everyone had cheese I was raising a family then struggling but paying my way.

I said at that time watch out this was going way past government cheese. When I started working raising a family there were very few not working look at it now.

How do I know these things I was a co-manager in a busy grocery store and we never had any food stamps or welfare checks and I know this was true everywhere.

I honestly don't know how we have survived thus far? Wife taught school 35 years and she see the change also!

bob
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:48 AM   #26
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Name: Gerry
Trailer: 1979 Boler 1300 / 1991 Casita Freedom Deluxe
Maine
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Back on thread about the trash.... I anyone goes and picks up the trash, the only person who will feel good about it will be YOU.
The idiots will come back, and say, look it's all cleaned up, and you know what will happen, they will trash it again.
If it was a one day camp area, I would think if BLM workers did their jobs they would chase them out after one day.
In NH if you don't have a pass for parking in the National Forest just to see the sites, and the Ranger DO drives threw, several times a day, you will get a ticket.
So you pay the $25 for sticker the beginning of the year or a $5 days use pass, or you pay the $50 ticket when you get caught.
Ticket them daily if over-staying and they may find a $25 private campground to stay in and they will actually save money.
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:51 AM   #27
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The will never be an end to trashing of public lands, true. But cleaner-uppers are not the only beneficiaries. The next person to visit will enjoy a clean spot, too, though they may not know the work it took to make it so.

I am reminded of “The Starfish Thrower.” By Loren Eisley:

One day a man was walking along the beach when he noticed a boy picking something up and gently throwing it into the ocean. Approaching the boy, he asked, “What are you doing?”

The youth replied, “Throwing starfish back into the ocean. The surf is up and the tide is going out. If I don’t throw them back, they’ll die.”

“Son,” the man said, “don’t you realize there are miles and miles of beach and hundreds of starfish? You can’t make a difference!”

After listening politely, the boy bent down, picked up another starfish, and threw it back into the surf. Then, smiling at the man, he said…” I made a difference for that one.”
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:51 AM   #28
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Name: bob
Trailer: Was A-Liner now 13f Scamp
Missouri
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fees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry View Post
Back on thread about the trash.... I anyone goes and picks up the trash, the only person who will feel good about it will be YOU.
The idiots will come back, and say, look it's all cleaned up, and you know what will happen, they will trash it again.
If it was a one day camp area, I would think if BLM workers did their jobs they would chase them out after one day.
In NH if you don't have a pass for parking in the National Forest just to see the sites, and the Ranger DO drives threw, several times a day, you will get a ticket.
So you pay the $25 for sticker the beginning of the year or a $5 days use pass, or you pay the $50 ticket when you get caught.
Ticket them daily if over-staying and they may find a $25 private campground to stay in and they will actually save money.
More and more fees more and more taxes go not towards the one who does the work but the one who you know sets in the office making things up. ask my wife a teacher of 35 years where the money goes?
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:54 AM   #29
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Trailer: Was A-Liner now 13f Scamp
Missouri
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get out there

I have heard this stuff for so long I cant recall when I first heard it. my best advice get out there and have fun. I have tented all over the US including Alaska and Hawaii never a problem1

We have tented all over Europe including Israel and never a problem Just get out there and enjoy yourself!

No matter who is in charge things will never suit some people!
bob
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Old 02-13-2020, 11:56 AM   #30
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Better see Escalante while you can if you believe public lands are not under attack. Two million acres lost between Bear's Ear and Escalante, stroke of a pen.
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:27 PM   #31
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Unfortunately it's difficult to avoid politics these days when discussing public lands. In the past there seemed to be some common ground, but somehow concerns about public land and environment in general became limited to one side of the aisle. It's a sad situation, would not have predicted it even 40 years ago.
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Old 02-13-2020, 12:39 PM   #32
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Missouri
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Here is my humble opnion. Wife was a school teacher every administrator they came and went wanted a big bond issue they put it on their resume you know! Their first idea was we have got to get teachers more money so the idea was tacked on to get public sympathy!


Lo and behold they would get it passed! Great but teachers still at the low-end of pay and again oh there just isn't enough money!


Eventually the school had to pay the bonds but of course they overspent and promised things didn't get done but no money!


My best idea and I see it here every once in awhile a new guy has to come in and knock those spenders down and sort of start over. Everything survives and things are held together just like before.


Things continue to get done despite cuts and changes!


bob
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:01 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k0wtz View Post
Everything survives and things are held together just like before.
Unfortunately this is incorrect.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:32 PM   #34
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Name: RogerDat
Trailer: 77 Scamp 13
Michigan
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The political commentary is clearly well outside the rules of the forum. When someone does post something political please don't respond or quote the offending post and respond. Someone has to clean up all THAT garbage too!


The moderators as a group decide what actions need to be taken over forum rules violations. Shouldn't have to tell grown adults how to avoid political discussions as often as it comes up.


For those in need of a refresher.... https://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/...ork&page=rules


Now I have to go back to picking out the violations from the useful comments. So yes I'm cleaning up someone else's garbage right now. Please be part of solution not part of the problem as I am sure most of you would be in a campground be it park or BLM dispersed camping.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:35 PM   #35
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We don't read every post but anyone can hit the exclamation point under a post to report it. One could say this thread has generated a good deal of reports.


That is the correct response to a post that is coloring outside the lines. Don't respond, don't quote it and disagree/agree. Just report it and ignore it. Will get dealt with fairly soon.


I would point out any name calling is not allowed. It fosters an environment that drives people away or demands a harsh response.
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:26 PM   #36
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For what it is worth I have been camping for over 50 years. Have run across different shall we say standards that people apply to how they maintain or leave a campsite. From the leave nothing but footprints people to the good grief how did they get all that trash into the vehicle and still have room for camping gear?

Some tend to a messy camp, some consider bags of trash in one spot to be neat enough. Others take or dispose of their trash bags but leave all sorts of debris behind. Or a fire ring full of half burned trash or items that wouldn't burn.

Been that way for all the years I have camped. As kids were taught a clean camp doesn't attract pests. Which I think is true. So I try to keep everything cleaned up or put away. We were taught that leaving it better than you found it was the "right" thing to do.

As a kid we policed the campsite after all the gear was packed. I taught my kids to do the same. From when I was a kid, to when I had kids, to my kids being adults there has always been stuff to pick up that we didn't put there. I can recall more than once as a kid being sent bymy parents after some trash that was left laying around. I sent my kids after stuff, I'm sure the grandkids get the same.

There is considerably more people camping today than there was back then, in an attempt to provide recreational opportunities to the residents and to attract tourism a lot of effort has been made to make more areas available. And to improve access.

The bar to camping in terms of the ease with which one can go camping and have a reasonable level of comfort has dropped considerable in the last 1/2 century. Just look at the proliferation of 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive vehicles. Or the number of people in self contained RV's.

That increase in access is a two edged sword. The more people enjoy our open and wilderness spaces the more support maintaining them will have. On the other hand more folks will mean more stress on the environment and more "noobs" who may not know best practices. Plus the inevitable increase in just plain don't care people.

I will say telling someone they don't want to drain a gray water tank on the ground goes over much better when you explain how many pests that will draw. Flies and such are annoying, mice are destructive, and the critters that eat mice like snakes, coyotes and such can be a little hard to deal with in a campsite. Then if they must drain you loan them a shovel and explain how important it is to dig deep and put things back as they were and best avoided in the future. Most folks appreciate the information, the ones that don't? Well you already have a shovel to dig a hole so you are half way to having them dealt with.

We can set a good example, we can try to explain why it matters or better practices to people who may not know better. And yes we can clean up after the jerks to the extent we are able. As is so often the case in life we have a choice, light a candle or curse the darkness.

I hope to make at least one long trip through the west using BLM and National Forest dispersed camping. Yes I will take some extra garbage bags and nitrile gloves in case they are needed. I expect however that most campers will leave the area as good as they found it if not better. The few others are like people who don't use turn signals every time. You just deal with it and hope "karma".
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Old 02-13-2020, 10:57 PM   #37
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Name: Fred
Trailer: Escape 19
Arizona
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Too much $$$, too much poverty

Sadly the trashed freedom and beauty we love and enjoy is endangered by both ends of the spectrum. Too much money brings spoiled brats who can afford to go where they shouldn’t and too little brings the homeless who can’t go anyplace else. Sadly the thing that is too often missing in today’s society is personal responsibility. Whether rich or poor, if folks cherish nature..or cities for that matter...they take care of things as those reading this do. If they don’t care, they trash whatever they touch. Worst of all, we can’t fix stupid.
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Old 02-14-2020, 07:43 AM   #38
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Name: bob
Trailer: Was A-Liner now 13f Scamp
Missouri
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polite

I am impressed we have disagreed but everyone has stayed cordial to one another. As for nasty campers maybe I drive around with rose colored glasses but I have not seen a campground messed up like the picture that was posted.

If anyone is familiar with the slabs for some reason I get their stuff I can just imagine! I think many years ago I saw a state park in Tn. I think that allowed permanent campers. I saw fridges outside running sort of a strange place but it was neat just run down looking.

In Mo. our state parks are in the conservation realm of things we are still charging $13.00 for a primitive camping spot but get into the luxury stuff and it will cost you! There still seems to be plenty of money flowing!

Matter of fact at our trout fishing parks you have to do reservations to get a spot if you want el and sewer!

bob


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That is all fine, and I'm glad you guys are monitoring the site. It must be kept polite or it will fail. But I hope you are not letting the complainers be the ones driving the bus. Just because someone, somewhere decided to complain doesn't mean there is a problem, and touching on a political point, doesn't always mean it needs to be deleted just to satisfy an anonymous complainer.

It might be impossible to discuss camping on the various categories of land in this Country, without touching on the reasons they are designated as such, their value to some and interpreted waste of resources by others. Or how the costs should be handled, how to deal with abusers, or the future of the place being discussed. Or what might be needed to keep having them available, or the imminent threat to them. Those are political points, and ones that affect all of us here. And ones that don't have to be discussed rudely.

This site is special in that it can go in a lot of directions without getting rude or self destructive. It's valuable in that so many of us have made friends and learned so much. I don't think anyone here is interested in crossing a line into badgering, or humiliating others for expressing an interest in preserving public lands.

There will always be someone that interprets those concerns as political and unacceptable, if they don't agree. But are any of those concerns not valid for all of us who go camping and enjoy the restorative value it provides? And is there no way to mention any of those directly related concerns to fellow campers without offending someone?

Is it really outside the rules here to talk politely about issues that affect us all?

To quote Gordon, who apparently quoted the actual rule: "Discussions about politics, weaponry and religion are permitted only in association with the topic of this forum and will be closed or removed if they become disruptive."

In other words, discussions are permitted if directly related to the topic, and done politely. I did not read anyone being impolite. But, I consider it rude to secretly complain, or jump at the chance to complain if a certain word appears. It's unnecessary to try to always satisfy the complainer, or to consider the complainer always right, at everyone else's expense, by closing threads that are not a problem, or ones not venturing outside the stated rules.

Why close a thread if the comments are directly related to the topic, and politely stated?
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:31 AM   #39
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Oregon
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We can't change other adults behaviors, only our own. I camp with a lot of friends. Most often I'll see them walking with a plastic bag and one-use rubber glove in their pockets. We can all help keeping campgrounds, public lands and beaches cleaner through our own behavior and picking up after those that choose otherwise.
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:27 AM   #40
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People, please take time to review the Community Rules. These have been built with purpose in mind. Political discussion pretty much always turns nasty, as there are a lot of differences of opinion. We are here to have fun and learn about things related to our moulded fibreglass trailers and our ways of camping.

Another thing, you are not allowed on threads to discuss how the administration or moderation works, or is working on this site. If you have any thoughts or concerns on this topic, please send it as a message rather than posting it here.

If any further discussion in this threads is contrary to what is laid out in the Community Rules, this thread will be closed. The majority here want a fun and happy site, not one with discussion better done in private away from here.

Thanks for understanding. I think I am going to ask for my wages to get doubled. Oh yeah, double zero is still zero.
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