Quote of the day

[MC1]

From another RV forum..........

"I'm in Europe right now, Denmark and Northern Germany, and I have been ever so tempted to take pictures of some of the tow combinations here. I've yet to see a single truck, even with the largest trailers. Yet, perhaps miraculously, the highway isn't littered with wrecks."

[Bob Miller]

Somehow I don't see the relationship... What's the context?

[Bob Miller]

Wait....
Maybe because Denmark's speed limit while towing is 50 mph and Germany's is also 50 MPH, unless you have a TUV inspection of your rig and a special license, in which case you can race along at about 60 MPH, has something to do with that..... Duh...


In that case it makes for a good argument to limit trailer towing to 55 MPH in all states.


I was in Idaho last month, with it's 80 MPH speed limit, and driving 55 MPH took a lot of rear view mirror driving.


Speed limits | Overseas Holidays | The Caravan Club

[Jim Bennett]

It is quite interesting to see what all is used for RVing in Europe. No monster motorhomes, not even large pickups to tow bigger trailers either. Even the larger models Escape is now making would be big over there.

I would imagine in time we will see more of a trend towards smaller RVs in North America too. I know a few friends with bigger units, that camp a fair bit, but don't travel longer distances, are looking to downsize to something like what we have when they retire, and want to travel more.

While in some cases there are merits to towing my trailer with my Ford F-350 diesel, I MUCH prefer the smaller Honda Pilot, even though it does not get great performance towing, it still does the job fine.

[Uplander]

Something to think about as you drive down the road.
Fact is that your chances of being in or causing an automobile accident increase with every mile per hour your speed is less than the flow of traffic. Driving at
55 MPH in traffic moving at 70 MPH increases your odds of being in a crash.
Strange fact is if you are moving just a little faster than the average flow of traffic your chances of being involved in a crash decrease!!
These facts are not published by our government agencies here in the U.S.A.


Not a bad idea to have a tow vehicle that is heavier than the travel trailer with some surplus power to spare.

Happy Safe Camping!

[Bob Miller]

(Clip) "Fact is that your chances of being in or causing an automobile accident increase with every mile per hour your speed is less than the flow of traffic. Driving at 55 MPH in traffic moving at 70 MPH increases your odds of being in a crash.
Strange fact is if you are moving just a little faster than the average flow of traffic your chances of being involved in a crash decrease!!"


Your suggestion runs contrary to common sense, exactly where is/was that statement published and by whom? And please don't quote a special interest group.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Uplander

Fact is that your chances of being in or causing an automobile accident increase with every mile per hour your speed is less than the flow of traffic.

Driving at 55 MPH in traffic moving at 70 MPH increases your odds of being in a crash.

It's interesting that 13 states have their speed limit set at 55 mph well below the general highway speed.

I recall that Ohio 'had' their semi speed limit at 55 as well.

Maybe we should follow the school bus approach and put a continuous strobe light on the rear of our trailer. Something different catches one's attention, as if the trailer's not enough.

Bob:

Review the Solomon Curve, which may be a tainted study. It's interesting to read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve

[Bob Miller]

I don't think that we can legally do that in most states, but having nice bright tail lights and running lights is a good start. At night I see all to many RV's with tail lighting that looks like they must have a dead battery or are trying to effect the 1930's look in lighting, but it is usually just faulty wiring and connections.

[Bob Miller]

RE: Solomon Curve (Post #7)


Yep, it's interesting, but;
a) As mentioned it may have been "tainted",
and IMHO
b) I too would be much more concerned with speed differential accidents if I was still driving those wonderful American vehicles of the 50's and 60's that had all the maneuverability, at speed especially, of a shipping barge. Wait... didn't we used to refer to them as "Barges". LOL


But, as you point out that at least 13 states still have the speed differentials, suggest that there hasn't been any real supporting evidence since that study(?)


Thank You for the link.

[Uplander]

Thank you Norm and Ginny for the additional and factual information.
Bob always gets his 2 cents in.....I counted on him to respond.

My facts came from an intensive special drivier training I had to attend when involved in law I forcement training as part of a U.S. Air Force assignment.
I found the facts interesting and wanted to share.

Happy Camping!

[RogerDat]

We used to camp in a large motorhome. I always said camping with MPG in single digits only worked for a couple of types of trip.

Really short. Less than 50 miles to and from campground gas cost is insignificant factor. But going 100 plus miles each way? That starts to add a fair amount of expense to a weekend camping trip.

Long range for a long time. Driving 1,200 miles and spending 10 days or two weeks the benefits of the space and amenities and the cost savings from no motel and restaurant expense on road. Plus ability to drive or rest as desired to get there sooner made the gas cost worthwhile when averaged over the higher number of days spent parked.

Totally stunk for mid range 3 day weekend trip, slower driving means more road time, greater gas expense. Drive "up north" after work meant arriving at mid-night. Then burning most of the last day for the return trip. All at 8 mpg if there was a tail wind.

To a large extent it will depend on how the boomers decide to camp. Snow bird and able to stay for extended visit with kids and grandkids argues for larger rigs becoming more common. Holy expando Batman!

Travel and seeing the sights will push folks more toward modest size campers and tow vehicles. The 16 & 17 ft. models with maybe a few more amenities or layouts geared toward the full time adult couple. Grandpa and I are off to Burning Man, don't call we will be turning the phone off until it's over. No pockets in the birthday suit for the phone.

[MC1]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

Somehow I don't see the relationship... What's the context?

The author is not a fan of pick up trucks or large Suv's and tows his rather large trailer successfully with a pro set up Honda Mini Van.

[Jon in AZ]

In 10-20 years Big Brother will solve this problem. Trucks and trailers in one lane at an electronically-governed towing speed and passenger vehicles in another lane also traveling at an electronically-governed speed. The traffic control computers will maintain safe vehicle separation in each lane. Passing is eliminated.

Tow rigs meet rigid specifications with periodic inspections and automatic weighings to make sure they can be safely driven at the predetermined speeds.

Fantasy?

[Steve L.]

Private aviation has virtually dissappeared due to costs, mostly fuel, and my sense is if the current political mindset were to continue, RV-ing too would be fined and/or priced out of acceptance. How dare we consume more gas than our share just to go somewhere to toast s'mores?

[RogerDat]

I too am skeptical of the claim that driving slower increases odds of being in an accident. Would need to have some links to provide the basis for it. I know the theory that slower drivers are a hazard is one that some subscribe to but don't recall anyone providing links to sources that directly support it.

Recall from trucking days that driving to get there as fast as you could you added risk from passing, hard braking and speed changes by a massive number of times but on a drive of 400 miles arrived only about 15 minutes sooner than the driver that was instructed to drive there as safely as he could. He seldom passed and did much less hard braking, oh and used less fuel.

Could have been propaganda I suppose but it was propaganda the employer that owned the trucks wanted us to see.

On the other hand one has to wonder at the motivation of folks that self select to drive at a lower speed than general traffic and thus show up in the statistics.

Is it because they are compensating for an already perceived risk factor or condition(s) or just some sort of normal distribution? Seems to me traffic tends to move at an average speed with a few impatient folks trying to beat the average and a few often towing or heavily loaded going slower. I also notice drivers that seem tentative about where they are going or their ability tend to drive slower. Age related or general physical limitations can impact what speed a person feels comfortable with. Cataracts and night driving or driving in rain with glare are good examples of where a driver with less ability to avoid an accident slows down to match speed to ability to see traffic conditions.

Point is IF the most risky vehicles or vehicles driven by those with physical limitations that make driving a greater risk tend to drive slower you have skewed your data. Is driving slower an accident cause or an effect of those that decide to do it being a sub group more likely to have an accident?

If that is the case the same curve might well result, the less safe vehicles and drivers distribute the same as the hot dogs that speed. With the "normal" driver in "normal" driving equipment/situation has the least accidents.

In theory I suppose being passed is as dangerous as passing but I would guess that depends on the abilities of the individual drivers and the vehicles involved.

One thing about bulk statistics they can be interesting but... 100% of mammals that consume water will die and almost 50% of the population will never get pregnant from sex irrespective of contraceptive use. So you could say the big picture stats only point in the direction of the right questions that need to be examined, not really provide answers.

[floyd]

It has been said that being paranoid does not mean they are NOT out to get you!
Like a dog chasing its tail we spend too much of our time pursuing the "Zeitgeist of the site" which is hyperbole and distrust of adult responsibility.
RVing has proven to be safer than other forms of traffic largely due to the fact that it is pursued by responsible, informed, and competent people.
As such, they are certainly aware of the rules and more importantly aware of what works for the fun and safety of themselves and those around them.
Quoting the law, which varies from state to state,is fine as long as the the purpose is not simply to bolster a weak argument, in fact most states require license plates for RVs in which the application process exposes the applicant to the applicable rules apply.
Most of us are motivated by a desire to stay safe and do the right thing, remembering that it is the spirit and not the letter which gives life.
Fear is a second rate motivator which is soon ignored and encouragement is more effective than coercion.
If something is inadvisable....advise, it actually works better than shame or threats.

[floyd]

When towing I often(almost always) drive somewhat slower than traffic.
I find that it causes no problem since the trailer itself acts as ample warning for overtaking traffic. I have not had any bad reactions or close calls due to the disparity in speed when towing.
When driving an ordinary car or light truck without a trailer, overtaking traffic does not notice the disparity in speed until much later which can cause some anxious moments.

[Jim Bennett]

When I took Traffic Engineering in school, they taught us that the main way to avoid accidents is to avoid differences in speed and direction. Basically, if everyone travelled at the same speed, and followed the same direction there is no chance for conflict. Obviously, this is all theoretical, as in the real world it can't be done in all instances, but traffic engineering should do everything to minimize these conflicts.

When there are multiple lanes, having one lane in which a slower speed is maintained is not too much of an issue, other when the driver doing 91 pulls into the left lane to pass the driver doing the speed limit at 90. This driver is then causing others in that right lane to slow down, creating a bottle neck and getting these other folks bothered by the situation. Lane changing to pass all on multi-lane roads, with vehicles doing varying speeds, will obviously create the possibility of conflict. I have heard people say, that they are within the law driving at or below the speed limit, so screw the others in a hurry. This is not good defensive driving, and only creates further conflict, both between the drivers, and possibly the vehicles they are driving.

On single lane roads obviously having a slower driver will cause people catch up and again create a bottle neck and angry emotions. This is where passing lanes spaced out periodically are good, or pull-outs where by law you must pull over to allow others to pass. On a single land road, there is usually only one speed limit, and it would be best if everyone just did that limit, or at least all do the same speed.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by floyd

It has been said that being paranoid does not mean they are NOT out to get you!
Like a dog chasing its tail we spend too much of our time pursuing the "Zeitgeist of the site" which is hyperbole and distrust of adult responsibility.
RVing has proven to be safer than other forms of traffic largely due to the fact that it is pursued by responsible, informed, and competent people.
As such, they are certainly aware of the rules and more importantly aware of what works for the fun and safety of themselves and those around them.
Quoting the law, which varies from state to state,is fine as long as the the purpose is not simply to bolster a weak argument, in fact most states require license plates for RVs in which the application process exposes the applicant to the applicable rules apply.
Most of us are motivated by a desire to stay safe and do the right thing, remembering that it is the spirit and not the letter which gives life.
Fear is a second rate motivator which is soon ignored and encouragement is more effective than coercion.
If something is inadvisable....advise, it actually works better than shame or threats.

Good post Floyd, more the most part

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

In 10-20 years Big Brother will solve this problem. Trucks and trailers in one lane at an electronically-governed towing speed and passenger vehicles in another lane also traveling at an electronically-governed speed. The traffic control computers will maintain safe vehicle separation in each lane. Passing is eliminated.

Tow rigs meet rigid specifications with periodic inspections and automatic weighings to make sure they can be safely driven at the predetermined speeds.

Fantasy?

That reminds me of a Joke...
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did, not screaming and crying like the passengers in his car!