RAV 4 has 3500 tow capacity

[floyd]

Originally Posted by caheath

IMO, important factors to consider include:

For towing safety and handling...
- TWR when the tow package is *factory installed* - fulled loaded camper weight should be at least 10% under TWR max. For example, TWR is 5000# so loaded camper weight should be no more than 4500#. I prefer to stay 20% under TWR.
- Vehicle's max tongue weight - loaded camper's tongue weight should be at least 10% under the max
- Vehicle's GVW - the loaded tug, including a full tank of gas and all passengers should weigh less than GVW
- Vehicle's GCWR - the entire loaded set-up (tug + camper) should weigh less than GCWR

Other handling factors...
- Vehicle's weight in proportion to trailer weight - important for braking, even with a trailer braking system
- Vehicle's wheelbase - the longer the better
- Vehicle's width and height compared to trailer's width and height - you will have wind problems, etc., even with a light-weight trailer if it is much broader and taller than the tug

So, just as an illustration....
Take a 150"wheelbase truck and try backing into a driveway with an empty car dolly.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

That was the point of my statement , though maybe not stated very precisely. I own a Ram 1500 , try looking up what is included in the Ram "tow package" , you get 5000 different opinions / answers. .Even the dealer can't tell you. My Ram supposedly came with the "Tow Package" yet I had to pay an additional fee for my factory trailer hitch .

Toyota's " Tow Prep Package " appears at times to be nothing more than a 4 pin plug in . I've read where people have had to spend an additiinal $1200 to $2000 to get a Toyota with the factory "Tow Prep Package" so its' capable of pulling a 1500 lb utility trailer.

To my way of thinking if you buy a new vehicle and you pay for a " Tow Package" or a "Tow Prep Package" you should not have to add a transmission cooler , or an oil cooler, or a 7 pin wiring harness or rewire half the dash or pay $500 to reprogram the vehicle's computer to add a brake controller or reconstruct the rear suspension or tie on a pair of cheap , crappy towing mirrors to the vehicle so you can see to tow , etc , etc ,etc ,etc , etc ,,,,,,,

The auto manufacturers do not make it easy to determine a vehicles capabilities to tow. A 3500 lb tow rated vehicle with the factory "Tow Prep Package " should be able to tow 3500 lbs the day it leaves the dealers showroom IMHO.

You make one solid point for sure. To advertise a 3500# tow rating and not offer a brake controller is silly, since trailer brakes are required over 3000# almost everywhere.
The 3500# rating is right where the most variation in capability occurs in tow vehicles. Above or below that rating is much more consistent and more likely to meet the rating the day it leaves the dealer's showroom.

3500# is also the most relevant tow rating when it comes to most fiberglass trailers. This means either doing the most homework or seeking the most knowledgeable advice when purchasing in this class.

Unfortunately the conversation always runs to the margins when people seek practical advice on this subject. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by floyd

You make one solid point for sure. To advertise a 3500# tow rating and not offer a brake controller is silly, since trailer brakes are required over 3000# almost everywhere.
The 3500# rating is right where the most variation in capability occurs in tow vehicles. Above or below that rating is much more consistent and more likely to meet the rating the day it leaves the dealer's showroom.

3500# is also the most relevant tow rating when it comes to most fiberglass trailers. This means either doing the most homework or seeking the most knowledgeable advice when purchasing in this class.

Unfortunately the conversation always runs to the margins when people seek practical advice on this subject. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Thanks Floyd , at least one person understands my posts.

[caheath]

Originally Posted by floyd

So, just as an illustration....
Take a 150"wheelbase truck and try backing into a driveway with an empty car dolly.

I'm not sure what you're getting at... ? I don't know of any camper that is of a similar length or height as an empty car dolly. I'm here to learn so please clarify.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by floyd

You make one solid point for sure. To advertise a 3500# tow rating and not offer a brake controller is silly, since trailer brakes are required over 3000# almost everywhere.

You are assuming that everybody wants to tow a trailer if they buy the trim level that has that capability.
This is like complaining that 8' 2X4s stick out the back of your short bed pickup.
As for tow prep package, my RAV4 had transmission fluid cooler, larger radiator, larger alternator. These were all things that enable comfortable towing and would cost a lot more to add after market.
What hitch should the manufacturer include in a tow package? Should it be class one or class three for WDH? Would you be happy paying for a weight distribution hitch when all you need is something to hold a bike rack?

Should the tow package also include the trailer?

[Jon Vermilye]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

That was the point of my statement , though maybe not stated very precisely. I own a Ram 1500 , try looking up what is included in the Ram "tow package" , you get 5000 different opinions / answers. .Even the dealer can't tell you. My Ram supposedly came with the "Tow Package" yet I had to pay an additional fee for my factory trailer hitch .

Toyota's " Tow Prep Package " appears at times to be nothing more than a 4 pin plug in . I've read where people have had to spend an additiinal $1200 to $2000 to get a Toyota with the factory "Tow Prep Package" so its' capable of pulling a 1500 lb utility trailer.

To my way of thinking if you buy a new vehicle and you pay for a " Tow Package" or a "Tow Prep Package" you should not have to add a transmission cooler , or an oil cooler, or a 7 pin wiring harness or rewire half the dash and pay an additional $500 to reprogram the vehicle's computer to add a brake controller or reconstruct the rear suspension or tie on a pair of cheap , crappy towing mirrors to the vehicle so you can see to tow , etc , etc ,etc ,etc , etc ,,,,,,,

The auto manufacturers do not make it easy to determine a vehicles capabilities to tow. A 3500 lb tow rated vehicle with the factory "Tow Prep Package " should be able to tow 3500 lbs the day it leaves the dealers showroom IMHO.

Unfortunately, unless Toyota changed the Tow Prep Package that came with my 2010 V6 RAV4, it doesn't even include the 4 pin connector, just a location under the dash to plug in their optional 4 pin wiring kit ($150.00) that requires you to remove all the driver's side paneling between the front & rear to install. You also need to add the hitch, brake controller & wiring, charge line, etc. All in all, it was pretty much a 2 day job, although I also added a rear view camera for both the RAV4 & trailer that took part of the time.

Still, the 2010 V6 RAV4 was an adequate tow vehicle for a 3000 lb Escape 17. While a shorter wheelbase than many trucks, the very short trailer ball to rear axle made it very stable, and wonderfully maneuverable getting into tight spaces. It also was the only tow vehicle that let me make a "U" turn on a narrow 2 lane highway. My biggest gripe was the small gas tank, and low ground clearance. While it only got 15MPG towing, after dropping the trailer, 19 - 20MPG around town & 25MPG highway.

I'm still waiting for the first report from an owner of a fiberglass trailer using the new RAV4 as a tug.

Lastly, it isn't all Toyotas that come with an inadequate tow package. While it didn't come with a built in brake controller, my Tacoma only needs an adapter to plug in a controller. Everything else was there.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by caheath

I'm not sure what you're getting at... ? I don't know of any camper that is of a similar length or height as an empty car dolly. I'm here to learn so please clarify.

Its an illustration, the point of which is to show the effect of too much disparity between wheelbase and trailer length.
I addressed most of my point in post #14.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

You are assuming that everybody wants to tow a trailer if they buy the trim level that has that capability.
This is like complaining that 8' 2X4s stick out the back of your short bed pickup.
As for tow prep package, my RAV4 had transmission fluid cooler, larger radiator, larger alternator. These were all things that enable comfortable towing and would cost a lot more to add after market.
What hitch should the manufacturer include in a tow package? Should it be class one or class three for WDH? Would you be happy paying for a weight distribution hitch when all you need is something to hold a bike rack?

Should the tow package also include the trailer?

No I'm just saying its not a 3500# tow package if it is not prepped to tow 3500#.
The hitch supplied with a 3500# tow package should be one capable of towing a 3500# trailer.
Don't get me wrong here, I believe in doing my own homework and taking responsibility for my own decisions and necessary mods. I am used to products being misrepresented, and I do the best I can to compensate, but I don't like it, and probably never will.

As for having the trailer included with the tow package?....

I should be able to expect a 1200# payload package to come without the 1200 pounds of horse crap which usually comes with it, but I have sifted through that pile too many times to expect to find a pony.

[Glenn Baglo]

Do you consider a 'tow prep package' to be the same thing as a 'tow package'?
All I've been saying is that words matter and a prep package is not a tow package, no matter what the buyer thinks. Toyota offers a 'tow prep package'.
I negotiated with the dealer and had wiring for brake controller and charge ( specified #10 gauge ) and had class 3 hitch receiver for WDH installed rather than Toyota class 2. I didn't assume.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Do you consider a 'tow prep package' to be the same thing as a 'tow package'?
All I've been saying is that words matter and a prep package is not a tow package, no matter what the buyer thinks. Toyota offers a 'tow prep package'.
I negotiated with the dealer and had wiring for brake controller and charge ( specified #10 gauge ) and had class 3 hitch receiver for WDH installed rather than Toyota class 2. I didn't assume.

I believe that Toyota is free to call anything on their vehicles anything they desire within the law. I find their practice unethical , deceptive and designed to be misinterpreted by the general public.
IE :If the vehicle is rated to tow 3500 lbs and you purchase the "tow prep package" it should come with a 3500 lb rated hitch , provisions for adding a brake controller and wiring to the rear of the vehicle including brake and charge conductors
I also believe that Ram is not 100% honest either , when they use the phrase "When properly equipped " and don't define what properly equipped consists of.


None of the automakers , make it easy to choose a tow vehicle and some make it harder then others.. They all seem to enjoy playing word games or stating things in legalize.

[Jon in AZ]

In my perfect world, tow-rated vehicles (whether by standard equipment, factory tow packages, or dealer accessories) would at least include all the mechanical and electrical upgrades for towing the full rated trailer. In particular, the idea of have to connect additional wiring into a highly integrated modern wiring harness to accomplish trailer lighting, braking, and charging seems retrograde to me. I can see Glenn's point, however, that I may want to choose a particular hitch, brake controller, connector (4- or 7-pin), mirrors, etc. for a particular application either from dealer accessory offerings or aftermarket.

But how to get there... We could let the DOT or some other government agency set standards and regulate towing equipment. In Europe, that's pretty much the case, right down to the allowed coupler height. In North America, we seem inclined to let the markets exert pressure on manufacturers to change practices.

If Toyota finds they are losing market share because their vehicles are a PITA to set up for towing, you can bet they will change. It was a factor in my decision to buy a Pilot instead of a Highlander. In 2011 the Pilot was plug and play for the full tow rating on all trim levels, standard on every unit made, no tow package offered or required. But they still didn't make it easy; dealers were generally ignorant of the technical details of what equipment the vehicle had.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I believe that Toyota is free to call anything on their vehicles anything they desire

Your Ram any good at ramming stuff?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Raz

Most would think a tow prep package would include a hitch, at least a light connection, and an easy way to connect a brake controller. Not the case when I owned Toyotas. In fact I was told adding a brake controller would void my warranty. Have things gotten better?

tow package on my 2008 Tacoma includes a class III/IV 2" reciever, 7-blade RV connector, and a socket to plug in a brake controller. towing any trailer much over 1500 lbs without brakes is illegal in many jurisdictions, 3000 lbs in the rest.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Do you consider a 'tow prep package' to be the same thing as a 'tow package'?
All I've been saying is that words matter and a prep package is not a tow package, no matter what the buyer thinks. Toyota offers a 'tow prep package'.
I negotiated with the dealer and had wiring for brake controller and charge ( specified #10 gauge ) and had class 3 hitch receiver for WDH installed rather than Toyota class 2. I didn't assume.

Actually, I have never entered a dealership to buy a vehicle that I didn't already know more about it than any salesman in the place.(whoop)
I like to know whether there is a pony in the pile before a dollar changes hands.
BTW... I heard today that it is confirmed that the new Ranger is coming at last!
Word is a 2.3L Ecoboost with a 10spd AT.
Of course I will know more before I write the check.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Your Ram any good at ramming stuff?

I got this right from the chairman of the board!...
Silly old Ram has high apple pie in the sky hopes!


And this is a Toy Yoda...

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Your Ram any good at ramming stuff?

The kindest and most honest thing I can say about my Ram is " It gets me from point A to point B "
I don't ask for any more and I don't expect any less !

[thrifty bill]

FWIW, The F150 comes with three different tow packages. It really confuses the average consumer.

My 2010 came with the top tow package, which at that time, did not include the factory brake controller, despite being prewired for the controller. 9,800 pound tow rating, max tow package, no brake controller.....

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by floyd

BTW... I heard today that it is confirmed that the new Ranger is coming at last!
Word is a 2.3L Ecoboost with a 10spd AT.

that sounds /horrible/ for towing.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

that sounds /horrible/ for towing.

Sounds great to me. 280HP and 310FP torque.
Remember I am pulling an Egg, not an Egg Carton!
I have pulled car trailers all over the country for 17 years and a couple hundred thousand miles with my present Ranger and it still outworks its new SOB competition.
Compared to my 4.0L 5spd.... 5 more gears and 40% more power will do just fine. The 2.3L will not likely be the only choice.
It will simply be the right choice!

[Raz]

What is sounds is expensive.

Interesting article on pickups.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ks/1027501001/


Average sale price for an F 150, $47,800. WOW