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Old 01-15-2018, 07:17 AM   #41
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Speaking of vehicle costs, I was a little surprised (in a good way) at the pricing on the RAV4 Adventure. Under $30K for AWD is less than I expected. Ford Escape and Hyundai Santa Fe Sport both start at around $33K to get a model with AWD and a 3500# tow rating. (In fairness, both competitors have a turbo-4 engine, which the Toyota lacks, and that is MSRP- discounting could change the picture.)

I don't think I'd consider towing the full 3500#, but for a 13'er it's looking like it could be an decent alternative in the compact crossover class.

As someone who typically buys used, I like that the towing upgrades are standard on the trim. Makes it easier when shopping used to find a tow-capable vehicle. When I was last car shopping, that was the problem with Highlander- you couldn't tell easily which ones had the tow prep package. Most of the V6 units I checked out did not.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:27 AM   #42
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What is sounds is expensive.

Interesting article on pickups.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ks/1027501001/


Average sale price for an F 150, $47,800. WOW
One more reason to buy a Ranger instead. They are expected to start in the mid 20s.
Still it is early yet, and it takes time and study to get my money, plus a substantial discount. I always say " I'll drive a hard bargain or I'll drive what I drove in".
If you see me driving one you'll know it cost less than $30,000!
BTW, You can still buy a brand new F150 for under $30,000.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:02 AM   #43
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reason I said, horrible for towing, you'll be way up on the boost constantly when towing in headwinds or up grades, and transmissions with lots of gears are far more fragile and more expensive to repair.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:42 AM   #44
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reason I said, horrible for towing, you'll be way up on the boost constantly when towing in headwinds or up grades, and transmissions with lots of gears are far more fragile and more expensive to repair.
You only have to worry about repair costs if it fails.
If the new version of the Ranger is anything like the last version then there is little reason to have concern.
In its' peak Ford sold more than 350,000 Rangers per anum.
Hopefully they will return to #1 in mid size truck sales .
We didn't buy a Ranger last time because we thought it was too small but with the update we may have to give it consideration.
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:36 PM   #45
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reason I said, horrible for towing, you'll be way up on the boost constantly when towing in headwinds or up grades, and transmissions with lots of gears are far more fragile and more expensive to repair.
Thank you for your concern, however well or poorly founded, but...
Let's just say that I disagree completely with your assessment and that I am qualified to form an opinion.
I also like the 2.7L Ecoboost which has an extensive and distinguished record with much higher loads than I anticipate pulling.

To your second point...
More fragile than what? how many is too many?
I have never had much love for any automatic transmission in cars or light trucks. The jury may be out on the new 10SPD but the technology,like the present 6spd shows more promise than any predecessor from any make...Only time will tell!
Moot point anyway since it appears that no manual transmission will be available.
BTW.. The two worst automatics I have ever owned had only 2SPDs each, which resulted in 45 years of choosing manual transmissions.


I have recently purchased and now tow with a 6SPD automatic which performs well so far. The prognosis is good but you can't ever tell whether you have a good vehicle until you have sold it, and then only if you have kept it for an extended period of time.
I like to compare unscheduled maintenance over at least 100,000miles.
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:55 PM   #46
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To add... modern transmissions include more gears, but they also have much better electronics controlling and protecting them. Those electronics will likely include a tow/haul mode to optimize shift points when towing and minimize excessive shifting. Most also sound an alarm and initiate a "limp mode" when transmission temperatures rise before catastrophic damage occurs.

There was a time when 3-speed automatics were the norm and people said the same thing about the then-new 4- and 5-speed overdrive automatics.

I'd say the same argument- better electronics- also applies to modern turbo-charged engines.

That said, I have never been an early adopter. I like to give a new engine or transmission at least 2-3 years of real-world data before I'll consider buying one.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:12 PM   #47
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I hardly think that a manufacturer of a passenger car such as a RAV4 or a 4Runner expects that many of their buyers are going to tow with it. The vehicles have towing ability but there is no reason for Toyota to include all kinds of things for someone using their passenger car to tow a recreational trailer, which is certainly rare. Some may tow for other reasons such as boats but I would still think that that would not be near the majority. I would, however, expect that they would think that pick-up trucks would be commonly used for a substantial load.

In 2011 the 4Runner came with 7-pin ready and other towing features, not controller which buyers may want to choose themselves anyway.

As far as the SAE J2807, those tests looked good to me and I am glad that they have a standard now to compare vehicles from different manufacturers instead of the manufacturers making up their own numbers. That looks like a good improvement to me.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:24 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
To add... modern transmissions include more gears, but they also have much better electronics controlling and protecting them. Those electronics will likely include a tow/haul mode to optimize shift points when towing and minimize excessive shifting. Most also sound an alarm and initiate a "limp mode" when transmission temperatures rise before catastrophic damage occurs.

There was a time when 3-speeds automatics were the norm and people said the same thing about the new 5-speed overdrive automatics.

I'd say the same argument- better electronics- also applies to modern turbo-charged engines.

That said, I have never been an early adopter. I like to give a new engine or transmission at least 2-3 years of real-world data before I'll consider buying one.
The 2.3L Ecoboost has been in wide use since 2015.
It is the same engine family as the 2.0L Ecoboost which was updated in 2015.
2019 will be the fourth year for the twinscroll 2.3L Ecoboost.
I drove it in the 2015 Mustang with a 6SPD manual and liked it.
It has a good service record
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:27 PM   #49
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After two Chevys, two Fords, a Toyota and a couple of Frontiers, I just bought what I hope will be my last pickup, my third Frontier. It doesn't talk to me. It doesn't steer for me, it doesn't brake for me. It has manual locks, crank up windows. No alarm, no gps, no touch screen. Apparently none of the things most folks want. It sat on the lot for over a year. Having owned two that were identical, I knew exactly what I was getting. I worked with state of the art electronics all my working life. Now I prefer simple, easy to work on, easy to fix. I just hope they let me on the road with a steering wheel in 10 years
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:30 PM   #50
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I hardly think that a manufacturer of a passenger car such as a RAV4 or a 4Runner expects that many of their buyers are going to tow with it. The vehicles have towing ability but there is no reason for Toyota to include all kinds of things for someone using their passenger car to tow a recreational trailer, which is certainly rare. Some may tow for other reasons such as boats but I would still think that that would not be near the majority. I would, however, expect that they would think that pick-up trucks would be commonly used for a substantial load.

In 2011 the 4Runner came with 7-pin ready and other towing features, not controller which buyers may want to choose themselves anyway.

As far as the SAE J2807, those tests looked good to me and I am glad that they have a standard now to compare vehicles from different manufacturers instead of the manufacturers making up their own numbers. That looks like a good improvement to me.
Toyota does build a vehicle that is somewhat designed for towing small trailer " The TUNDRA " I have to agree, most vehicles are bought to commute to and from work and to run short errands.
If I was an auto manufacturer I would not build my whole vehicle lineup for towing in order to satisfy less than 10 % of the market.
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:34 PM   #51
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I have a 2010 Rav4 that is V6 and has the towing package so that the transmission will run cooler and I easily pull a 1974 Trillium with 2 full propane tanks (on the tongue) and a battery inside underneath the front window. I did equip it with electronic brakes - just to save the ones on the car!
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Old 01-15-2018, 01:53 PM   #52
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RAV 4 has 3500 tow capacity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz View Post
After two Chevys, two Fords, a Toyota and a couple of Frontiers, I just bought what I hope will be my last pickup, my third Frontier. It doesn't talk to me. It doesn't steer for me, it doesn't brake for me. It has manual locks, crank up windows. No alarm, no gps, no touch screen. Apparently none of the things most folks want. It sat on the lot for over a year. Having owned two that were identical, I knew exactly what I was getting. I worked with state of the art electronics all my working life. Now I prefer simple, easy to work on, easy to fix. I just hope they let me on the road with a steering wheel in 10 years
I'd be willing to bet engine and transmission control electronics are state-of-the-art (or at least up-to-date). That's the kind of electronics I was referring to, not the "infotainment" variety.

Still, I think you did well to get one of the last of the "old-school," mid-sized pick-ups. I had a 1998 Frontier king cab 4x4, 4 cylinder, 5-speed stick, manual hubs and transfer case, crank-down windows. Fun little truck. Sold it when the first kid was born because it wouldn't take a car seat. Bought a minivan (with a utility trailer for those "pick-up" things) and never looked back.

Will say... I do insist on power windows now. I like to be able to adjust ventilation on the fly. Opening just the driver's window makes for some really unpleasant sensations as air inside and outside try to exchange places next to your ear.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:55 PM   #53
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I'd be willing to bet engine and transmission control electronics are state-of-the-art. That's the kind of electronics I was referring to, not the "infotainment" variety.

Still, I think you did well to get one of the last of the "old-school," mid-sized pick-ups. I had a 1998 Frontier 4x4, 4 cylinder, 5-speed stick, manual hubs and transfer case, crank-down windows. Fun little truck. Sold it when the first kid was born because it wouldn't take a car seat. Bought a minivan (with a utility trailer for those "pick-up" things) and never looked back.

Will say... I do insist on power windows. I like to be able to adjust ventilation on the fly. Opening just the driver's window makes for some really unpleasant sensations as air inside and outside try to exchange places next to your ear.
I'd love to have the manual hubs. It would be nice to not have the front differential turning all the time. But that's not how they come. Nissan has made very few changes since 2005 which is why it gets alot of negative reviews. The big changes between 2012 and 2017, the stereo has a USB input and there's a sunglass holder with the dome lights. The funny thing is every year Nissan hints at a redesign sales go up. Lots of old farts like me I guess. Certainly not everybody's cup of tea. What was this thread about? .
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Old 01-15-2018, 03:17 PM   #54
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I'd love to have the manual hubs. It would be nice to not have the front differential turning all the time. But that's not how they come. Nissan has made very few changes since 2005 which is why it gets alot of negative reviews. The big changes between 2012 and 2017, the stereo has a USB input and there's a sunglass holder with the dome lights. The funny thing is every year Nissan hints at a redesign sales go up. Lots of old farts like me I guess. Certainly not everybody's cup of tea. What was this thread about? .
Raz , you are the smart one ! I bought a truck and its' got all that electronic crap that I don't want or need plus I had to pay extra to get it. When I get so old and weak that I can't change radio stations by turning a knob then I shouldn't be driving.

I love now days how they take something simple , add electronics to it and make it extremely complicated.
What used to take one simple motion now takes 8 steps to complete.
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:31 PM   #55
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Raz , you are the smart one ! .
No, not that smart. Just stubborn. Like Floyd, there was a time when I wouldn't buy an automatic transmission. When it became impossiibe to buy a manual I was forced to give in. Today I wouldn't buy a tow without an automatic. As far a new trucks, look for a "work truck" . Used to be they had smaller engines, limited options, bench seats.etc. But that's changing.
For example my Nissan, has the same engine and transmission as the top tier.

Quote:
I love now days how they take something simple , add electronics to it and make it extremely complicated.
What used to take one simple motion now takes 8 steps to complete.
And a sixth grader to show you how.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:02 PM   #56
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I'm pretty happy with the equipment level in my 2008 Tacoma TRD Off Road. its a 6 speed stick shift. it has power windows. the 4x4 is electronically shifted, but it lets you get into 4H on the fly from 2H, which is handy if you're already moving when you discover you need it (stopping may not be a great idea on mud, etc)... shifting to 4L requires a near full stop and clutch in...

the dashboard is all analog instruments, only the odometer/trip meter is LCD. I did replace the original factory stereo with one that has bluetooth.

it towed my casita like it wasn't there, except maybe an extra downshift on long steep hills if we were fully loaded. it towed the escape 21 back from Dallas Texas to California by way of Reno quite nicely.
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