Rising Fuel Costs

[Bob and Judy]

High gas prices is why a bought a small travel trailer in the first place.

On my very first trip -- actually they day I picked up our new-to-us Casita we drove straight to a nice RV campground in Hiawassee, GA. I told the lady at the desk that I had never owned a travel trailer, never stayed in an RV park and I sure couldn't back that trailer up. She gave me a pull through spot that worked fine.

Since it was a pull-through spot all my "neighbors" were big Class A's. My next door neighbor was a 40-foot pusher towing a Hummer! The vehicle he was pulling was bigger than our trailer! I told my wife that our Casita looked like the Maid's quarters for that big pusher.

Still, we stayed there over three weekend and can't imagine that they had any more fun than we did.

So, what can we do about high gas prices. Sadly, get used to it. But consider this -- where I live in north-Georgia there are literally hundreds of campgrounds and RV parks easily less than 100 miles from home. I can enjoy a lot of camping without traveling very far. You probably can to.

Also, when I go on international RV web-sites I see that the RVs are always much smaller and so are the tow vehicles. Those folks still look as if they are having a lot of fun.

So, in the end, I think those of us who already enjoy the fun of camping in smaller, lighter RVs have already "beat the system" somewhat. I bet I'll be camping a lot more days than that big pusher with the hummber.

"Just another day in paradise"

[Mike Watters]

Random scattered thoughts (about all I'm capable of right now anyway...)

Geo Metro: We used to have one of the convertibles. GREAT car! Easily the most reliable car we ever owned. Sold it a couple years ago since we just weren't using it much anymore. Prior to that however it was used extensively (had about 110-120k miles on it). Only serious maintenence was replacing the top, tires and clutch. Even drove it across the US a couple times.

Small trailers: (or cars or motorcycles or anything else for that matter) Most folks in the US have serious 'size issues'. "Bigger = Better" and such. It's gonna take a lot to reframe that mentality. I personally have a lot more respect for "small, compact & efficient". It's not hard to cram a bunch of stuff into a big box on wheels. But starting with a small box and making it as useful as possible is a real challenge. I'm more impressed by that. Course, there's also the fact that they're a whole lot easier to mess with towing and such. When we had the Boler - I couldn't back that thing up to save my life (first trailer...), so I'd just unhook it and shove it wherever I wanted it. Once my kids (then aged about 7 and 9) were pushing it across the grass into a spot.

Course - for me personally - I've decided not to care. If we're on a trip - gas is one of the least of our expenses (next to food and assorted activities) so there's little point worrying about it. Where gas prices hurt is on daily commutes. We worried about that modestly when we bought our HOUSE (not car) so we're only a hair over a mile from work. Hard to worry much about gas prices then either - especially when in good weather I'm using a motorcycle (250cc Korean number) which gets about 50 mpg.

mkw

[Bob and Cherie L.]

Greetings -

Bob and Cherie L. -

Hmmm I would seriously "reconsider" even trying the Aveo as at the Chevrolet web site, it is stated: " Trailering is not recommended." Now I "know" we all have tried and many times "succeeded" doing things that are NOT recommended, but I would think by the time you install the hitch / wiring / trailer brake (or not, though I believe that they are required up your way, and even "if" not, on a vehicle that light, "if" you got to try I would consider it a must - safety wise), anyways, you will have a "tidy" sum tied in equipment that may not work nor easily transferred to another vehicle.
- - - Nothing against the Aveo, we own one and LOVE it especially the mileage

Also as Pete Dumbleton said make sure to check the specs of the Ranger you are "considering" as they produce a "price leader" (at least here in the states) that I think had a very limited towing limit.

Did a "quick look" at the Toyota Corolla and it seems to state (at least on their web site) that they have a 1500 lb. capacity for towing - which "if" carefully done, should be doable

Just helpful thoughts - - and Good Luck

Thanks for the advice, we are seriously considering a Toyota Corolla. We take our yellow lab with us and would have to give up the back seat to him. i just wanted to try the Aveo hatchback for a short 5 mile trip for the heck of it. I will go get the Scamp with the S10 and get experiment when I get it home. Both my Sonoma and S10 have been modified to carry heavy weight. I haul firewood with them and fuel so when I buy a truck I take it home and tear out the springs and install heavy duty springs. shocks and tranny coolers.If we get a Corolla I will probably beef it up. Thanks

[Joe MacDonald]

Back in my gas pumping days, I was selling gas at 1.00/gallon(Canadian), and minimum wage was 3.50/hr.

not too bad, 3-1/2 gallons per hour.

as of this morning, gas is 5.08/ gallon, and minimum wage is 7.75/hour

this means you now work 2.3 hours to get the same 3-1/2 gallons.
or 230 percent higher cost.

any way you look at it we get hosed at the pumps.
A little tidbit for our US friends, Canada sends more oil (crude) to the states than the Arabs do.

[Frederick L. Simson]

Why is it that when we need to conserve, and one of the easiest ways to do that is to drive a little slower, several states are raising their speed limits?

There are now places in Texas where the speed limit is 80 mph!

Other states have bumped the limit up from 65 to 70 or 75.

[BOBSMITH]

The only thing to be done about high gas prices was something that should have been done years ago, but was not allowed because oil corporations control the strings on which we all dance:

conservation.

We should have been allowed to have access to alternative fuels and to electric vehicles at least a decade back. These things were available then and are available now, but there is no production of either because large oil corporations don't want them. At the very, very least we should have had stricter cafe standards on our motor vehicles, but these were lobbied against by the corporations and so were never implemented.

There are vast, vast petroleum and natural gas reserves in the North American continent. If we were any less greedy and any less wasteful in our consumption of these fuels, we'd be self-sufficient in them. However, we are so wasteful in our consumption of oil and gas that we end up having to import huge amounts of them to keep up our wasteful standards.

We're just beginning to get what we bloody well deserve for allowing ourselves to be led about like sheep.

[Lee Hillsgrove]

<---- See my avatar.

It's not a long-term solution, but if the U.S. would just embrace the new technology of high-speed passenger-car turbo diesels like Europe has, it would go a long way toward easing the pain for a while and allowing us to work on a longer-term solution. Fuel that diesel with a percentage of domestically-produced biodiesel, and watch us stretch the supplies that much further.

My 1998 VW Jetta TDI has around 220,000 miles on it and still gets an honest, measured 50+ mpg if I keep the speeds down. Highway cruising at ~75 mph will return around 46-47 mpg. These figures are about the same if you're using 100% petroleum diesel or a blend of 20% biodiesel. Fr that matter, I've run it on 100% biodiesel and the mileage is the same, but it runs a lot smoother and even at 20% it makes the exhaust smell pleasant. This car has also had a performance chip installed in the computer as well as a 2-1/2" diameter exhaust system. it's certainly no slouch...

Keep in mind that this is an 8 year old car that carries 4 or 5 people in a very reasonable amount of comfort and has a generous trunk. It does not use special low-rolling-resistance tires and does not have anywhere near the level of complexity of one of the hybrids. No insanely expensive battery with an unknown lifespan, either, yet is still manages to better cars like the Prius in actual real-world mileage.

If you think of modern diesels as being slow, smelly, loud, and hard to start in the winter - forget it. They're not. I don't even have the provisions to plug in my Jetta and I have started it at -20°F, the lowest temperatures I have seen here since getting the car. Granted, it did make a little bit of smoke and sounded like a bucket of rocks in a washing machine for about 30 seconds, but after that it cleaned right up and was good to go. It never once gave me a hint that it was not going to start, though. I think a gasser would have had an equally difficult time under the conditions.

Electric cars are nothing more than a very inefficient way to transfer pollution away from the point of use. IF we generated power using solar, wind, or hydro power that might be a more palatable solution, but we don't. I think we also need to embrace nuclear power - there are obvious drawbacks to it, but nuke plants certainly run a lot cleaner than coal-fired ones.
If we are going to continue to run coal plants, the least we could do would be to couple them with algae farms - the CO2 from the smokestack is separated out and fed to algae in shallow, racetrack-shaped ponds. The algae is then harvested and the oil is used to make biodiesel. On a per-acre basis, algae is many, many more times productive than corn or soybeans.

Don't even get me started on Ethanol as a fuel source. Total dead-end. 'Car and Driver' had a very good article a month or so ago about the economics of E85 if you're looking for more info.

Now, if the auto manufacturers would offer us a genuine compact pickup truck with a manual transmission and a turbo diesel, I would be the first in line to buy one. My tow vehicle is a '92 Chevy S-10 with the small 2.8 V-6. If I was towing all the time, I'd say the larger 4.3 would be a necessity. If I could get a 3-liter diesel in it, that would be just about perfect for what I would want it for. Great mileage, and loads of torque for towing.

<sigh... rant off>

[Per Walthinsen]

Lee:

You make some good points. We are in a situation where retiring on a measly fixed income is around the corner, and the investment to get a more fuel-efficient piece of transportation is probably not feasible. We have a "beater" in addition to the Odyssey and soon we will be able to drive the beater over a cliff and reduce the associated costs.
Fortunately the Odyssey does very well on the road by itself (typically over 28mpg hw) so it could be worse, but we have to make it last.
We did the trip to Bandon this year, but the fuel costs were considerable. Fortunately the number of fine camping areas close to home and in SW Washington is great and we'll systematically explore those.
The plug-in hybrid concept is promising since it puts most of our mileage on battery only while still having unlimited range. I suspect viability is one major battery breakthrough away. Pollution can then be controlled at relatively few sources and be more amenable to governmental action, I hope. Since so much of our driving would then be within the electric-only range I think the payoff could be significant.
I think that the only real way to evaluate alternative fuels is to follow the production path completely and figure out what it takes to produce these fuels. It could be worse than a zero-game situation. An examination of the Brazilian situation could help us understand what is involved with ethanol, for example.
The costs of our gas-guzzling habits are enormous, not the least of which is the political cost.

[CD Smith]

I consider diesel fueled engines as dead-ended a technology as ethenol. I don't think development resorces should be wasted on extending the use of fosil fuel in any way. I don't think giving ethenol manufacturers a $0.51 cent tax credit to help them compete in the fuel market place is a good investment for the American public.

What is needed is to expand the generation, delivery, and use of hydrogen for mobile vehicle requirements. Don't harvest the algae for biodiesel, let the algae generate hydrogen. Use it as the basic fuel. You can even run your turbo-diesel on it and get even better milage then you get now.

This is only the beginning of my 'rant'.

[Lee Hillsgrove]

Hydrogen may, or may not, be a "tomorrow" fuel.

Biodiesel is something that can be done today. It can use existing infrastructure and is far, FAR safer than hydrogen. Hindenburg, anyone?

I'm not aware of a process where algae produces hydrogen directly - can you provide a link to a source of info for me? Hydrogen through electrolysis is a losing proposition. More energy in than you get out, like ethanol. At least biodiesel is a break-even or net gain.

[BOBSMITH]

You can't compare the Hindenburg with hydrogen fuel cells. Please.

And gasoline/alcohol aren't flammable? Give me a break! You're butt is sitting on top of a bomb every time you get in your car/truck.

[BOBSMITH]

Back in my gas pumping days, I was selling gas at 1.00/gallon(Canadian), and minimum wage was 3.50/hr.

not too bad, 3-1/2 gallons per hour.

as of this morning, gas is 5.08/ gallon, and minimum wage is 7.75/hour

this means you now work 2.3 hours to get the same 3-1/2 gallons.
or 230 percent higher cost.

any way you look at it we get hosed at the pumps.
A little tidbit for our US friends, Canada sends more oil (crude) to the states than the Arabs do.

The old "adjusted for inflation" argument about gas prices is spouted constantly on the boob tube and is nothing but pro-oil corporation propaganda initiated by those corporations. Repeating that baseless argument is pretty pointless. Gas is far more expensive than it used to be. Hence the pain in the wallet every time you gas up.

[Lee Hillsgrove]

You can't compare the Hindenburg with hydrogen fuel cells. Please.

And gasoline/alcohol aren't flammable? Give me a break! You're butt is sitting on top of a bomb every time you get in your car/truck.

What is going to feed those fuel cells, BTW?

I agree that gas and alcohol are extremely flammable. That's one of the great benefits of diesel / biodiesel. Biodiesel in particular is very safe and is essentially non-toxic.

[Chester Taje]

WARNING

Lets not start any fights here---Just put in your ideas.We are all from different areas and have our own ideas.

[BOBSMITH]

Nobody's fighting.

The "hydrogen is flammable" argument is another one promoted by the hydrocarbons industry.

That said, the hydrogen fuel cell as our transportation savior is a pipe dream. The technology is decades distant. It's just something to keep people from getting too antsy while our atmosphere continues to become polluted and our climate is irrevocably ruined and the ecosystems collapse.

There are decent alternatives. Fuel diversity is one. Including diesel/bio-fuels as mentioned before. Also electric cars, which have short ranges, but which are excellent choices for in-town commuting. And, no, they don't use as much hydrocarbons as gasoline-powered autos. Especially if you live in an area that generates part of their power grid via hydro plants, wind plants, natural gas-fueled turbines, or nuclear power plants. Again, the argument that electric cars generate as much CO2 is an oil corporation lie.

Also, an increase of fuel efficiency in American autos. Tightly regulated and fiercely enforced. Corporations don't seem to want to do the right thing and must be made to do so. An unfortunate truth.

The plain fact of the matter is that pulling even a fiberglass trailer takes a decent motor powered by either hydrocarbons or bio-deisel. Electric power ain't gonna do it. Neither will the pipe-dream hydrogen fuel cells do the job (not for a long, long time). For now, we have to make do with gas-powered internal combustion engines, or engines that will run on bio-fuels. Those are the only reliable choices for those of us who have RVs.

[CD Smith]

Don't believe the propaganda.

Hydrogen fuel cell power for automobiles is not a technology that will be available for decades.

However, you can run your reciprocation engine on hydrogen today. The only difficulty is fuel availability and an afordable conversion kit.

Why not just add a hydrogen boost system today and increase the miles driven on each gallon of gasoline.

Hydrogen Boost

[Bigfoot Mike]

I'm not aware of a process where algae produces hydrogen directly - can you provide a link to a source of info for me? Hydrogen through electrolysis is a losing proposition. More energy in than you get out, like ethanol. At least biodiesel is a break-even or net gain.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...;type=printable
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid557.php
http://mistrealm.com/Algae.html
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=...553&CatID=5
http://blogs.zdnet.com/emergingtech/?p=16
http://www.zetatalk.com/energy/tengy14r.htm
http://www.futurefarmers.com/survey/algae.php
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/24/bioengi...l-cells-closer/
http://193.71.199.52/en/energy/hydrogen/re...2002/22869.html

Sorry, I saw a Special on TV.

[Bob and Cherie L.]

<---- See my avatar.

It's not a long-term solution, but if the U.S. would just embrace the new technology of high-speed passenger-car turbo diesels like Europe has, it would go a long way toward easing the pain for a while and allowing us to work on a longer-term solution. Fuel that diesel with a percentage of domestically-produced biodiesel, and watch us stretch the supplies that much further.

My 1998 VW Jetta TDI has around 220,000 miles on it and still gets an honest, measured 50+ mpg if I keep the speeds down. Highway cruising at ~75 mph will return around 46-47 mpg. These figures are about the same if you're using 100% petroleum diesel or a blend of 20% biodiesel. Fr that matter, I've run it on 100% biodiesel and the mileage is the same, but it runs a lot smoother and even at 20% it makes the exhaust smell pleasant. This car has also had a performance chip installed in the computer as well as a 2-1/2" diameter exhaust system. it's certainly no slouch...

Keep in mind that this is an [b]8 year old car that carries 4 or 5 people in a very reasonable amount of comfort and has a generous trunk. It does not use special low-rolling-resistance tires and does not have anywhere near the level of complexity of one of the hybrids. No insanely expensive battery with an unknown lifespan, either, yet is still manages to better cars like the Prius in actual real-world mileage.

If you think of modern diesels as being slow, smelly, loud, and hard to start in the winter - forget it. They're not. I don't even have the provisions to plug in my Jetta and I have started it at -20°F, the lowest temperatures I have seen here since getting the car. Granted, it did make a little bit of smoke and sounded like a bucket of rocks in a washing machine for about 30 seconds, but after that it cleaned right up and was good to go. It never once gave me a hint that it was not going to start, though. I think a gasser would have had an equally difficult time under the conditions.

Electric cars are nothing more than a very inefficient way to transfer pollution away from the point of use. [b]IF we generated power using solar, wind, or hydro power that might be a more palatable solution, but we don't. I think we also need to embrace nuclear power - there are obvious drawbacks to it, but nuke plants certainly run a lot cleaner than coal-fired ones.
If we are going to continue to run coal plants, the least we could do would be to couple them with algae farms - the CO2 from the smokestack is separated out and fed to algae in shallow, racetrack-shaped ponds. The algae is then harvested and the oil is used to make biodiesel. On a per-acre basis, algae is many, many more times productive than corn or soybeans.

Don't even get me started on Ethanol as a fuel source. Total dead-end. 'Car and Driver' had a very good article a month or so ago about the economics of E85 if you're looking for more info.

Now, if the auto manufacturers would offer us a genuine compact pickup truck with a manual transmission and a turbo diesel, I would be the first in line to buy one. My tow vehicle is a '92 Chevy S-10 with the small 2.8 V-6. If I was towing all the time, I'd say the larger 4.3 would be a necessity. If I could get a 3-liter diesel in it, that would be just about perfect for what I would want it for. Great mileage, and loads of torque for towing.

<sigh... rant off>

Lee - I saw your address as "live free or die" USA - that sounds like our state of N.H. We live in Errol up by the Canadian border - that's why we vacation in Newfy in order to escape the tourists.

[james kent]

There's a lot of talk of hydrogen, but what about other alternatives? While driving through the countryside we've all noticed those barnyard smells Why could we not harness some of that methane gas. We could keep a pig, cow, goat, horse or fowl and produce our onown gas and not have to top up at the local pump. The neighbour wouldn,t complain "cause he'd have his own.

[Lee Hillsgrove]

Why not just add a hydrogen boost system today and increase the miles driven on each gallon of gasoline.

Hydrogen Boost

My first question, after following the link, is "Do you own one of these Hydrogen Boost systems?"

From the website:

...a Salesman Authorization Certificate that authorizes the owner to receive a $100 commission or referral fee for the first Hydrogen-Boost System he sells. Sales commissions increase for each subsequent sale. No stock required, no costs, no hassle involved.

Google "Brown's Gas" and you'll find a lot of what I would consider extremely questionable material.

It's very simple - electrolysis requires more energy than can be recovered from the gasses released.