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Old 10-30-2019, 03:49 PM   #41
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Dr Spock endeavored to teach a generation how to raise children.
It now seems he has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.
We now have a whole generation of middle aged dependent children, not remotely capable of self sufficiency.
I guess when you conflate children with dogs, you kinda lower their expectations.
Dr Spock's generation would have been better served had they aspired to raise adults.


People are born with rights, status, and responsibilities which are incomprehensible to dogs. Among those responsibilities are stewardship of valuable property including the obligation to care humanely for the animals entrusted to them.

Failure to recognize the value of humanity, and the authority vested in it, is a mistake made by those who would conflate people and dogs.
Such a position is unworthy of respect.


No dog will ever be capable of responsible moral judgement.

Men are, and those who reject that obligation, soon descend to that status.
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Old 10-30-2019, 04:16 PM   #42
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Yet another Pit Bull fatal mauling

Fox News and Daily Mail today.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/michigan-...death-pit-bull

These stories also appear in Daily Mail about once a month about them mauling grandmothers, kids, neighbors, etc.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/michigan-...death-pit-bull
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Old 10-30-2019, 04:17 PM   #43
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Doctor Harold: I so agree with you. I know a way to bite-proof puppies providing you start early enough. It'd be up to the breeder, because by 8 weeks it's too late. Well, you can influence it after that, sure, but to really bite-proof them you have to start very early. Sadly, it also stops them from kissing you. Oh, well! No slobbers. (Guess that's not the worst thing ever.)

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Old 10-30-2019, 04:42 PM   #44
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Doctor Harold: I so agree with you. I know a way to bite-proof puppies providing you start early enough. It'd be up to the breeder, because by 8 weeks it's too late. Well, you can influence it after that, sure, but to really bite-proof them you have to start very early. Sadly, it also stops them from kissing you. Oh, well! No slobbers. (Guess that's not the worst thing ever.)



"K"
This is not true, at least in the majority of dogs in that the cannot be trained not to bite later. They can all be trained to not bite, though the earlier, the easier it is. But I know of a few dogs that were trained at a few years old to successfully to stop biting. The key is proper training, something many just don't do.

Too many people think it can be too late for all kinds of training, which just isn't true. Case in point, friends who lived on an acreage have an Aussie that when they brought him to town, just would not heel good at all, even on a lead. Nice dog, but just not trained very much at all. He was about 6 years old and they figured there was no way that they could ever get him trained to heel properly. I took him out, along with my dog who does not need a lead, and brought him back a good hour later with him heeling, and without a lead at that. They never did follow up on the training, but it made me feel good to see him behave so well.
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Old 10-30-2019, 05:03 PM   #45
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Good post, Jim
I am a big fan of dog training. To me that is the hallmark of responsible dog ownership. A well trained dog can accompany you to a variety of places and events. It's not easy to train a dog - it's a labor of love. At the very least, dogs need to heel, sit, & stay on and off lead. As training progresses, I do take my puppies to crowded events so that they can be exposed to a variety of situations.

I'm also a believer of getting a dog breed that will fit into your life style. Dogs prone to aggression and/or trained (or allowed) to be aggressive have no place in the event described.

Having said all that, we travel with our dogs. I have a travel trailer so that I can take my dogs to Retriever Field trials and Hunt tests. I take my dogs to outdoor cafes and hardware stores.

When we are traveling, if there is an interesting event, they are put in crates in the back of our SUV and come with us. If we feel comfortable about the situation, we put them on leads and take them along. Otherwise, they stay in the car. Two examples from our summer: there was a Shakespere play in the park. Our dog stayed in his crate in the car (with the back window up). But he could have easily sat with us.

There was an outdoor art festival. Out dog came along with us. My husband & I traded places holding on to him when we found a booth one of us wanted to check out. He got lots of pets. Even got to go noise to noise with other dogs at the festival.

Going to Jim's point, they are part of our family (pack). We love them, and we want them to accompany us whenever possible.
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Old 10-30-2019, 05:20 PM   #46
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Doctor Harold: I so agree with you. I know a way to bite-proof puppies providing you start early enough. It'd be up to the breeder, because by 8 weeks it's too late. Well, you can influence it after that, sure, but to really bite-proof them you have to start very early. Sadly, it also stops them from kissing you. Oh, well! No slobbers. (Guess that's not the worst thing ever.)

"K"


Dogs nip each other in play and mock battle. They need to understand that nipping is not appropriate for play with humans, and, as you say, they learn best when they learn early.

Training is everything. Sadly for many people, their only interaction with their dog is when they put food down on the floor for it.

I have been studying my 12-year old Jack Russel for a long time. (And my Springer Spaniel before her.) Dogs can't talk, but they can communicate. We just have to learn what their communication style is, and listen. Those kisses can be something like "I want food" or "I like the attention I'm getting from you". With my dog those kisses have different qualities. She also knows what the words stop and wait mean. Looking straight into a dog's eyes can be seen as an aggressive challenge if the dog is not familiar to you, or it can be a bonding thing if the dog is your friend.

One thing I've noticed is that people think training requires harsh vocal tones. They yell and speak quite sharply. I think this confuses the dog. I speak deliberately, consistently, and sometimes sternly, but never harshly. My dog knows what a stern rebuke and a frown is, and she doesn't care for it at all, but it's quickly over, and all is good again.

I once stared down a pit bull that came out of its yard to challenge me. I stared right at it and ordered it to sit, using strong deliberate tones. It didn't sit, but it stayed where it was until it's owner (with beer in hand and wearing a wife-beater shirt) came to retrieve it.

One thing my dog doesn't know it being hit. I've never hit her ever, although I did get on the floor and growl in her face once. It's about trust: she knows I might not be happy with her behavior at the moment, but I will never hurt her.

My father had a Brittany Spaniel when I was a kid, that was chained in the back yard. (Looking back I realize it's a horrible practice.) On occasion when the dog would get loose it would run. My Dad would call and call and when the dog finally came home he would beat it. Who wants to come home to a beating? And, there's no way the dog knows why it's getting beat. It saddens me to this day to think about it.

I love dogs. It saddens me when I hear about a dog being euthanized for some terrible act, while the owner is most likely feeling like they are the victim for having their dog forcibly euthanized.

In addition to fines or what other measures are dealt out by the courts, I certainly think those owners should have to attend a class on responsible dog ownership (stewardship, really) before being allowed to own another one.

--Harold
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Old 10-30-2019, 05:33 PM   #47
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I believe pit bulls have an inbreeding problem that can reduce mental stability.
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Old 10-30-2019, 05:38 PM   #48
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I believe pit bulls have an inbreeding problem that can reduce mental stability.
That is certainly possible. Many breeds suffer from inbreeding problems, because of indiscriminate breeding practices. I think it's likely that the problem pits are the ones bought by irresponsible owners from irresponsible breeders.

It's unfortunate in this country that pretty much anyone with a fertile female and access to a stud can become a "breeder".

--Harold
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Old 10-30-2019, 05:39 PM   #49
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RE: Inaccurate Information

Hi guys,

Although this post really isn't regarding the purpose of this forum in general, I hope to change even a single mindset about a topic I am personally passionate about, besides Fiberglass trailers.

I am extremely sorry to hear about any incidents that people have had regarding aggressive behaviours of dogs; however, it is inaccurate to look at the breed alone as the reason for the aggressive behaviours. These acts of aggression are learned behaviours triggered by stimuli that they have previously found to be supportive to their survival. Therefore, unfortunately when a dog attacks another dog, it is not due to an "innate" need to attack, it is because their environment has provided the need to do so, generally due to insufficient care by their owners.

For those that believe pitbulls/rottweilers/dobermans/german sherpherds to be the root of all evils in terms of dog attacks, please do a bit more research on this topic as that mindset is what is responsible for the deaths of many beautiful dogs. Many shelters are overwhelmed with these breeds as landlords, property managers, and even entire provinces are banning the breeds, leaving no place for owners to be able to house them, and provide the love they deserve. The most vicious dog attacks I have witnessed throughout my life have been from a black lab and a border collie - likely breeds most of you would consider "safe family dogs."

Pitbulls are actually known to be some of the most loving and loyal towards their owners of ALL sizes - children especially - for their tolerable nature. Check out a few of these quick videos regarding how former dogs that were forced into fights by disgraces of owners are immediately kind to those that provide a loving environment.


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Originally Posted by redbarron55 View Post
Pit Bulls have a history of this type of thing and were bred to attack.
Why people insist on owning dangerous animals is beyond me.
Some questionable people search out questionable animals for their ego.
I guess that if you need a dog to protect your drug stash a Pit Bull would be a good choice.
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Old 10-31-2019, 12:07 PM   #50
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A lot of misconceptions surrounding pit bulls out there. Any dog that has not been properly trained or socialized can be a problem. The pit bulls bad reputation has come primarily by way of man.
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Old 10-31-2019, 12:15 PM   #51
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A lot of misconceptions surrounding pit bulls out there.

One thing that is not a misconception is that a pit bull has enormous strength in its jaws and is capable of doing great damage.
And, I'd venture that many pit bull owners own them for that reason.
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Old 10-31-2019, 12:31 PM   #52
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Pit Bulls were bred to be what they are.
Bad owners are just worse.
Of course not all are like they were bred, but many are.
Why take a chance?
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Old 10-31-2019, 01:53 PM   #53
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Ah, nature vs nurture. I think it's been pretty well established that it's never just one or the other.

Certain breeds have certain tendencies, because, for hundreds (or thousands) of years, they've been bred for those tendencies.

Learning the tendencies of a breed before owning one is key. Too many people focus on a dog breed because they think they look cool, or as a status symbol, or some other silly reason. Should a person living in a NYC apartment who spends 10 hrs a day at work own a border collie?

Every pit bull I've met has been the sweetest thing on earth when it comes to people. When it comes to other animals? I don't trust them. And it was already brought up, but the amount of damage they can do is the problem. Often little yap dogs are the most aggressive dogs out there, but how much damage do they do? That's why no one takes it very seriously.

Border collies are good for cows but were bred for sheep. Sheep don't need a lot of persuasion. A border collie is a wolf, with hyper-tuned hunt instincts, but the "kill" part of the hunt taken out. The worst border collies are supposed to do is nip. Whereas dogs like pit bulls were meant to grip, with crushing power. That's a legitimate difference. A person owning a dog capable of that kind of damage needs to hold themselves to a higher standard.

The issue is that so many people who own that type of dog consider themselves to be real tough-guys, and the dog is part of that image. If it's a bit aggressive, it's that much better for their image.

The family I'm renting from this winter own a ranch, and have livestock guardian dogs. These are not pets. They live outside and are willing to take on a grizzly bear. They've already killed two of his herding dogs. You better believe he understands that this dog was bred for a purpose, and that he'd better respect that.

On another topic, news programs are sensational. The very purpose is to report on things that are out of the ordinary, otherwise why would anyone care? Oh, someone got in their car and made it to work, with no issues. Who cares? The problem is people who don't get out enough, sitting in their home watching TV which is telling them to be afraid, be very afraid.
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Old 10-31-2019, 02:20 PM   #54
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I believe pit bulls have an inbreeding problem that can reduce mental stability.
You are probably 100 x more likely to come across an inbred Golden Retriever, Poodle or German Shepherd or any number of designer dog as you are an American Pit Bull or American Stafordshire Terrier. Over breeding and inbreeding happens with the most popular and celebrity breeds.
I was lucky enough to have a pure bred PitBull Terrier for 9 years. I raised him from a pup. Ziggy was an awesome pet who had no problems with people or dogs, big or small. At 85lbs with a great disposition he was a beautiful specimen of the breed. 🤔 There is so much misinformation out there on the breed you’d think they where running for political office.
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Old 10-31-2019, 02:45 PM   #55
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The only breed I've ever "bite proofed" was pugs. Let's face it, pugs are not inclined to kill anything but the inert food in their dinner bowls. I've seen a mallard duck chase our daddy dog into terrified hiding. Squirrels getting too close made him flee and shake. They're not particularly brave, are generally gentle and safe with kids (though they can scratch tender skin and knock over a toddler without trying), and even the most alpha males don't pose a deadly risk to adults. They don't have locking jaws and they don't have giant, strong teeth. So it's not much of an accomplishment.

I've been researching this afternoon, and training, socialization, and proper containment are all very important.

The earlier you accustom your dog to the way it must be and live, the better.

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Old 10-31-2019, 03:16 PM   #56
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One thing that is not a misconception is that a pit bull has enormous strength in its jaws and is capable of doing great damage.
And, I'd venture that many pit bull owners own them for that reason.
More fake news. Capable of inflicting serious damage sure, but only equal to their size. Guarantee my 135 lb Rottweiler could bite harder than my 85 lb pit bull. Watched him crunch a ham bone like it was a potato chip. The bone and muscle structure on a pit bull is no different than any other dog. Unfortunately you are probably right that there are way to many people getting them for their underserved reputation in the idea their supposed ferocity is some how a reflection of their toughness. These same people are probably the least likely to raise a well adjusted pet of any breed. The people are the problem not the breed. Over the years I’ve had 7 really great dogs, including a pit bull, Rottweiler, and Chow mix. Each was an awesome pet that enriched our lives in the time we had them and all are missed.
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Old 10-31-2019, 03:50 PM   #57
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More fake news. Capable of inflicting serious damage sure, but only equal to their size.

Yup.
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Old 10-31-2019, 04:06 PM   #58
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Ah, "fake news". The current cure-all fad language for anything people don't agree with, popularized by he who must not be named. Totally muddying the waters, where now the term doesn't mean anything except information you don't agree with or you think has bias, rather than true fake news which is sometimes put out just for fun, but mostly put out to intentionally confuse topics and people. There's news reported from liberal or conservative perspectives. That's just news. Since none of us are without bias. Fake news, as it was meant before 2016, is intentionally misleading, false information. But now the two mean the same thing and we can claim it and walk away, thinking we just won some battle.

Sorry I'll leave this thread alone now.
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Old 10-31-2019, 04:47 PM   #59
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Ah, "fake news". The current cure-all fad language for anything people don't agree with, popularized by he who must not be named. Totally muddying the waters, where now the term doesn't mean anything except information you don't agree with or you think has bias, rather than true fake news which is sometimes put out just for fun, but mostly put out to intentionally confuse topics and people. There's news reported from liberal or conservative perspectives. That's just news. Since none of us are without bias. Fake news, as it was meant before 2016, is intentionally misleading, false information. But now the two mean the same thing and we can claim it and walk away, thinking we just won some battle.

Sorry I'll leave this thread alone now.
😳 didn’t mean to get political here. I thought fake news was exactly that, not factual. No more no less. I’m way too old to worry about semantics , just happen to really like dogs and have had first hand experience with breeds some people would like to see out lawed. Never met a dog I didn’t like, not so much people ✌️
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Old 10-31-2019, 05:05 PM   #60
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More fake news. Capable of inflicting serious damage sure, but only equal to their size. Guarantee my 135 lb Rottweiler could bite harder than my 85 lb pit bull. Watched him crunch a ham bone like it was a potato chip. The bone and muscle structure on a pit bull is no different than any other dog. Unfortunately you are probably right that there are way to many people getting them for their underserved reputation in the idea their supposed ferocity is some how a reflection of their toughness. These same people are probably the least likely to raise a well adjusted pet of any breed. The people are the problem not the breed. Over the years I’ve had 7 really great dogs, including a pit bull, Rottweiler, and Chow mix. Each was an awesome pet that enriched our lives in the time we had them and all are missed.
Look up any list of dogs with most powerful jaws and pitbulls will be on the list.

And pitballs are extremely powerful. I see people trying to walk pitbulls and they can barely hold on to the leash.

I have neighbors with a pitbull who seems to like everyone but me. Even though he is almost 1/4 mile away from my house, he barks incessantly whenever I go in my back yard and if loose, runs onto my property barking and trying to force me back into the house. This is after the neighbor brought him over to make friends one day. The dog was friendly and even rolled on his back so I could rub his belly. Two days later he came after me again.

A roommate of the neighbor saw the dog come after me and came by to apologize and said he wouldn't blame me if I had shot the dog. He said something is wrong with it and he sees it a lot in pitbulls due to inbreeding. I think he works as a dog groomer.
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