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Old 11-06-2019, 02:10 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Scamper Jim View Post
Here we go again!

DM tried to call them Bulldogs, but readers know pitbulls when they see one.
.
😄Of course they do, the media has been hyping the breed as killer dogs for a couple of decades now. So if it attacked it’s a pit bull. I would be willing to bet that none of those dogs are pure bred pit bulls. And again where is the outrage with the totally irresponsible owner of these dogs. That’s what this story should be about. Get his or her face on the news and follow up on what happens to them. Let’s see the face of the idiot who can’t raise a decent pet and can’t properly control what he has. No.....it’s much more sensational to do the “ Killer dog” headline.
🤔 Just saying.....
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:14 PM   #82
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And if you see an irresistible owner and don’t call them on it you’re not helping the problem.

The problem is that some will get violent over this. Even more so for the fake "service dogs".


Service dogs are required to have two things. They have to provide a service, but they also have to be safe to have in public. Many people put very badly behaved dogs in a vest and insist that they are service dogs so allowed.
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:15 AM   #83
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The problem is that some will get violent over this. Even more so for the fake "service dogs".


Service dogs are required to have two things. They have to provide a service, but they also have to be safe to have in public. Many people put very badly behaved dogs in a vest and insist that they are service dogs so allowed.
Until we have real “service dog certification,” rather than “internet purchased vest certification” and start levying huge fines for service dog violations (emotional support animals are Pure BS) as well as for using handicapped parking spaces when the person for whom the handicapped placard was issued is not present, this type of problem will persist. The reason is primarily because some people view themselves as being “special,” thereby overlooking “long-accepted behavioral expectations.” They believe they are entitled to certain actions that the rest of us peons do not deserve, and what dies it matter if their narcissistic behavior has a negative affect on others. To sum it up, Me, Me, Me.
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:53 AM   #84
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The problem is that some will get violent over this. Even more so for the fake "service dogs".


Service dogs are required to have two things. They have to provide a service, but they also have to be safe to have in public. Many people put very badly behaved dogs in a vest and insist that they are service dogs so allowed.
Exactly.

A service dog should be no problem and I am OK with them.
The "Comfort" dogs, untrained and undisciplined are the problem.

Also a problem are the people who feel the need to own a pit bull to assuage their macho ego. They are often as untrained as their dogs and "secretly" glory in the inherent threat of the dogs.
Outside of a junkyard, perhaps, there is no need to endanger the public with them.
I know many of you own well behaved pit bulls and I am also certain that yours has never threatened a child or anyone else.
Just like when you read about a viscous attack THAT dog never did either.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:38 AM   #85
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Exactly.

A service dog should be no problem and I am OK with them.
The "Comfort" dogs, untrained and undisciplined are the problem.

Also a problem are the people who feel the need to own a pit bull to assuage their macho ego. They are often as untrained as their dogs and "secretly" glory in the inherent threat of the dogs.
Outside of a junkyard, perhaps, there is no need to endanger the public with them.
I know many of you own well behaved pit bulls and I am also certain that yours has never threatened a child or anyone else.
Just like when you read about a viscous attack THAT dog never did either.

The comfort dogs thing is totally stupid. Mostly the owners seem to be spoiled brats. We have a lady here with one of those little dogs the size of a large cat she calls a service dog. Has the vest for it and the whole thing. It barks AND GROWLS and people and has bit several. (yeah several) But she is sure it is a service dog and places can't noit let it in. She threatens anyone at a store who will not let her in with calling the US Marshalls and having them put in prison for the rest of their lives. Personally I think she should be doing time for her behavior.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:51 AM   #86
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Sounds like some folks have never seen an Autism support K-9 with an Autistic child who is having a "meltdown" episode." I agree that there is great abuse of the service animal laws, especially with what one might call an emotional support or comfort animal, but many do serve a valuable purpose. And of course they should be very well trained, under control and certified or otherwise in compliance with appropriate laws (that goes without being said).
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:52 AM   #87
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Until we have real “service dog certification,” rather than “internet purchased vest certification” and start levying huge fines for service dog violations (emotional support animals are Pure BS) as well as for using handicapped parking spaces when the person for whom the handicapped placard was issued is not present, this type of problem will persist. The reason is primarily because some people view themselves as being “special,” thereby overlooking “long-accepted behavioral expectations.” They believe they are entitled to certain actions that the rest of us peons do not deserve, and what dies it matter if their narcissistic behavior has a negative affect on others. To sum it up, Me, Me, Me.

Might be a bit of a problem with the not present. I used to get a lot of flak over a girl friend. She was wheel chair confined. I did love to hang with her, and would have other comments about people and places there. But I also helped her go do things on her own. That meant dropping her off and picking her up. Needed the large spots to get her to the car door in the wheel chair so used her hang tag for that. But people would see the other side of the trip and give me flak for being an able bodied person parking in handicapped.

Also have a number of friends with hang tags for very legit reasons that are not as apparent. Basically things where a short walk is not a problem so they don't look handicapped for a long walk is not in the cards.

By the say I have to give a shout out to Walmart and Sams. People may notice that they go out of their way to a lot of times hire the handicapped. AND they go out of their way to serve them. I was in an accident where it took them three years to get me back together. Lots of surgeries. And almost always after surgery for a few days to few weeks I was seriously challenged. Most places if you asked for help even with an obvious challenge they do something not necessarily what was needed in a grumpy manner. The Post Office (a lot of them) and Walmart stand out as places where the staff were quite willing to do what was needed to help and do so in a cheerful manner. And when I had an emergency Walmart had people quite happy to go into action instantly to help. I fell a few times and could not get myself back up without help. Target comes to mind the other way. Their staff just took it as an occasion to gather and make fun of me. Luckily a customer called 911 for me.

Yeah we need a standard for service animals. And obviously a symbol for animals that meet that requirement. And then we need serious consequences for fake animals. Yeah start with fines. I would be up for jail time for repeat offenses.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:39 AM   #88
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Until fairly recently, dogs stayed at home. For many people, they have now become an accessory.

I can understand an RVer needing to take the dog with them, but I don't understand why people take a dog to go shopping. I also don't understand why people take a dog with them to go shopping and then leave it in the car yipping for 20 minutes while they shop. Leave the poor dog at home.

I was at a park recently and was about to walk onto the bridge to cross the river, when a large dog lunged at me. The girl had the leash with both hands and could barely control the dog. That's another "pet" peeve. Don't get a dog you can't control and certainly don't take it out in public until it is trained and you are able to completely control it.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:14 AM   #89
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Sounds like some folks have never seen an Autism support K-9 with an Autistic child who is having a "meltdown" episode." I agree that there is great abuse of the service animal laws, especially with what one might call an emotional support or comfort animal, but many do serve a valuable purpose. And of course they should be very well trained, under control and certified or otherwise in compliance with appropriate laws (that goes without being said).

Not really. But guess I would not be surprised that in some cases this could help. In some cases how about a cat ;-) I have seen autistic children cuddling up with cats who like cuddling. There sure are a lot of differences in autistic children. And I have seen a lot of trying to make them the same and how unsuccessful that it. Actually I have a friend who has and autistic son. And mostly he manages the stereotypes very well. With one big exception. Yeah he hates most people including his mom hugging or touching him. BUT for some reason he has decided I don't count for this. He is way to old really for this now and is still doing it, but when they visit me he will grab a blanket and a book and cuddle up with me in my easy chair and we will read as long as I have time for. In the past when she read with him to help him with his reading she had to buy/borrow two copies of the book and sit seperately in the room with him to help him read. Really wished I knew how this worked out and how I could help her be able to do the same thing with him.

I would really call this a service animal. But I have less trouble with the comfot animal thing than I do with the untrained and uncertified thing. we need certifications, and we need consequences for trying to do this with uncertified animals.
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:45 PM   #90
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Boy, I guess some of this discussion comes down to how you view a relationship with a "pet". It's easy to read into some people's post and assume things that aren't really there, but it really does depend. Around here, there are a lot of ranch dogs. Now these are "working" dogs. But they're also constant companions. They go everywhere with their owners. They aren't "pets". They're part of the ranch operation, part of life, part of family. These are of course well-trained dogs.

Many people (myself included) will have issues with this, but they ride around town in the back of flatbed trucks. They're laying on the flatbed, paying no attention to anyone, while their owner is in the grocery store. No leash, no need for one.

This is a different relationship than "pet", where it makes sense to not bring the dog somewhere. Go camping without the dog? That's crazy. Personally I'll never kennel my dog. He gets taken care of by friends or I don't leave town.

I watched a guy with his heeler on the patio of a bar in Salmon, ID. Old rancher type guy. He got up to leave, and wasn't drunk but definitely buzzed. As he was leaving with his dog, he stopped at our table to talk, which had some young female forest service seasonals. He wasn't being inappropriate or rude, but definitely needed to just go home. His dog gave him about 20 seconds, then grabbed his pant leg and started pulling him away from the table. You can read into that or not, but what I saw was a dog with situational intelligence beyond anything many people give them credit for. This was not a pet dog, this was a true companion with a real brain and understanding, telling his owner "hey, you're embarrassing yourself, let's go home!". This and seeing dogs laying on flatbed trucks in parking lots without any care made me realize what dogs could be like. Certain breeds, anyway.

Anyway. There are "accessory" dogs, and "pets". But there are also animals that are part of the family and part of the team and part of a working operation, and they don't often get left at home. And that seems completely appropriate to me. Dogs are pack animals, not solitary animals. If you spend more than 50% of your time doing things that you don't consider appropriate for dogs, don't get a dog.

In a purse shopping is definitely somewhere to draw the line, though...
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Old 11-07-2019, 05:23 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cliff Hotchkiss
And if you see an irresistible owner and don’t call them on it you’re not helping the problem.


I want to know about those irresistible owners.
"K"
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:01 PM   #92
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�� Yeah me too
And I'm too old to get any better at this texting stuff��
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:29 AM   #93
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Cliff Hotchkiss: LOL.

As for service animals, did you know you can even have a service pony? AND that iln some cases, they are allowed on airlines?

You want to worry about a service cat...I'd say as long as the animal is well-behaved, it's a reasonable idea to just leave the person with the animal alone and not start prying. I mean, if you own the business or venue into which an animal is being taken, yes, you have the right to ask what service the animal performs, but if you are just as a bystander, the person may choose not to answer you and that is their right under the ADA. Then you can call the police to force an answer, and they'll be hit with the ADA guidelines, which say you can't ask what disability the person has. Which is weird, as saying "She's a blood glucose notification dog" kind of tells everyone the person has a blood sugar issue, which usually but not always means diabetes. And some people are very judgmental about Type II diabetes.

The problem as I see it is if an animal is behaving badly and the person with the animal is allowing hat bad behavior. That must be dealt with, and strongly. The ADA rules are clear. You can order the animal and person OUT if the animal is not in good control. Though you can't order them out if the animal relieves itself in some way...as long as the owner cleans it up.

I cannot imagine cleaning up after a service horse on an airplane.

Or anywhere, really. But I've cleaned up after the sugar dogs plenty.

"K"

Sugar dog, Cinder (Thistledew Cinderella Cupcake)
She alerted me after the MaryHill potluck in 2018 when we were allowed to take her in to the Stonehenge temporary observatory. She sat quietly but after an hour got up and began tugging me toward the door. We left. My sugars were dipping dramatically and I'd been too distracted to notice.

She does not look like a service dog. But she is.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:14 AM   #94
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Kai,

Service Pony? That's hilarious!

Loved your post. Very informative, and it got me thinking: all this conflict about dogs, service or otherwise, seems to be mostly a cultural issue. It's my understanding that in France people would take their dogs with them everywhere, or used to before the Islamic invasion (but that's another issue). Well behaved dogs were welcome in stores and restaurants, but we have to realize that France has (or had) a singular French culture.

The US has always had difficulties with culture. Northerners versus Southerners, East Coast culture, Left Coast culture. We may think of ourselves as a melting pot of different peoples, but tolerance of cultural differences is not equal in every city and hamlet.

One thing that does seem fairly universal is the belief that dogs are less than sanitary and do not belong in stores, restaurants, and other public venues. Allowing guide dogs for the blind was an obvious need, but it seems there was a fight to allow service dogs whose need was less obvious. It's no different than seeing a person use a handicap parking space whose disability isn't apparent. The issue is trust. Trusting people will not be fazed by people using service animals or handicap parking spaces, even when the need isn't obvious. Less trusting people might get annoyed or even angry. Such is life in the US.

There well always be people that push the boundaries. If it hasn't happened already, there will be someone with a service iguana. Think of the possibilities! A service tarantula maybe?

It reminded me of a comedy skit we had on an LP record when I was a teenager, from a comedian who has since fallen from grace, where he talks about the kind of person who, when walking down the street meets a person with a rhinoceros and says: "Oh, you have a rhinoceros? I used to have a rhinoceros."

Now days it would have to be a service rhinoceros. Who would question a rhino with a service vest? Certainly would have to buy an extra ticket on an airplane. Overseas flights might be a challenge.

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Old 11-08-2019, 11:35 AM   #95
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Thanks, Dr. Harold,

We took our service pug into a bar once that served lunch, and the owner stopped us with a sharp, "HEY! That's not a service animal! If it was, it'd have a vest on!" We walked another two feet so he could get a full look at our pug. Yup, service vest. He said, "Oh. It better be quiet!" And of course it was. Pugs can be very snoozy and blasé.

I love the service rhino...and I would very much want to know what service it provided. Actual security, maybe, not just emotional support.

My sister went to Paris a few years ago, and said she was "all wrong" for the city; she said she needed to wear all black and have a tiny dog with her.

I agree, the USA has a very wide cultural range. I wish we could unite more as a whole country, but I don't think that's happening any time soon.

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Old 11-08-2019, 12:04 PM   #96
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It has come to my attention that Florida has a problem with Pythons having a negative impact on the environment of the Everglades.
At the risk of losing a great business opportunity to a more ambitious entrepreneur I will explain my idea, which is chock full of profit making and problem solving ideas.


1] Go to the Everglades and collect Pythons
2] Collect the bounty.
3] Sell the snakes as "emotional support animals" to people who are in need of more hugs.


If I decide to keep one I will name him "Monty"
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:11 PM   #97
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.....I agree, the USA has a very wide cultural range. I wish we could unite more as a whole country, but I don't think that's happening any time soon.

BEST
"K"
A rhino would be perfect for a narcoleptic. And getting back to the original theme of this thread, I seriously doubt you would be bothered by any vicious killer dogs. (Or vicious people!)

I agree. Change is slow and often painful, but communities in America are becoming less provincial, mostly because of the automobile, television, and now the internet. We can't learn to accept people's differences unless we are exposed to them.

The service animal thing is about trust too. Apparently it's very easy to purchase a vest, and even though there are laws in place against misrepresenting your animal, the laws are weak. I'm sure there are people who would prefer we have more aggressive enforcement.

Personally, if I owned a business I would have a sign at the door that said "Well-mannered people and well-mannered dogs are welcome. Bad manners will get both ejected." Neither people nor dogs would need a vest.

Cheers!!

--Harold
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:17 PM   #98
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It has come to my attention that Florida has a problem with Pythons having a negative impact on the environment of the Everglades.
At the risk of losing a great business opportunity to a more ambitious entrepreneur I will explain my idea, which is chock full of profit making and problem solving ideas.


1] Go to the Everglades and collect Pythons
2] Collect the bounty.
3] Sell the snakes as "emotional support animals" to people who are in need of more hugs.


If I decide to keep one I will name him "Monty"


LOL!! Literally: LOL!

Brilliant!

Excuse me: I'd like to return this emotional support parrot. It's dead.

Sorry. No returns. Your emotional support python hugged it too tight.

Dang.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:24 PM   #99
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Until we have real “service dog certification,” rather than “internet purchased vest certification” and start levying huge fines for service dog violations (emotional support animals are Pure BS) as well as for using handicapped parking spaces when the person for whom the handicapped placard was issued is not present, this type of problem will persist. The reason is primarily because some people view themselves as being “special,” thereby overlooking “long-accepted behavioral expectations.” They believe they are entitled to certain actions that the rest of us peons do not deserve, and what dies it matter if their narcissistic behavior has a negative affect on others. To sum it up, Me, Me, Me.
When I was growing up my father assured me that I wasn’t SPECIAL or PRECIOUS and I wasn’t entitled to any special privileges.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:42 PM   #100
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Recently saw where a woman was trying to get her chickens declared service animals based on a letter from her Dr ( psychologist I’m assuming)
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