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05-11-2013, 03:26 PM
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#61
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Senior Member
Name: M
Trailer: Influx
Usa
Posts: 145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
It's been a long long standing joke in the electronics industry that all electrical and electronics devices run on smoke. The proof is in the fact if let the smoke out the devices quit working.
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Thanks for letting me in on the jokes!
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05-11-2013, 03:31 PM
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#62
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Senior Member
Name: M
Trailer: Influx
Usa
Posts: 145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Harris
MiMi are the batteries in a sealed compartment?
I have never seen a Parkliner .
Ed
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By sealed if you mean inaccessible or airtight, no it isn't. The compartment is insulated and has a lidded cover. The batteries and converter also resides in the same compartment as the water pump. We were told it is not a storage compartment, which we are in compliance with, but it's not 'sealed' with weather stripping or locked down if you will.
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05-11-2013, 03:54 PM
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#63
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Senior Member
Name: Francesca Knowles
Trailer: '78 Trillium 4500
Jefferson County, Washington State, U.S.A.
Posts: 4,669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimi Lee
There was battery acid spraying off the battery tops but it was the bad smell that woke us, not smoke.
Now that I'm out of panic mode, I reason the smoke was from the battery acid splattering, and burning, the wooden cover to the compartment. It was not smoking inside the cabin, until we lifted the cover at which point released it within and set off the smoke alarm.
I had a false sense of security that a new unit meant we were in the clear of electrical issues and troubleshooting involved in older models. It was so unexpected I couldn't even grasp it. Smoking battery was not accurate, but seems to be a good jump board for jokes- and humor even the kind that is going over my head is nice after having a bad scare!
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Thanks, Mimi...
Did it smell like rotten eggs? I ask because for me that would mean hydrogen sulfide....and for some reason I have it in my head that one of the advantages of AGM batteries is supposed to be that they don't/won't give off this gas-?
Francesca
__________________
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05-11-2013, 04:23 PM
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#64
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimi Lee
By sealed if you mean inaccessible or airtight, no it isn't. The compartment is insulated and has a lidded cover. The batteries and converter also resides in the same compartment as the water pump. We were told it is not a storage compartment, which we are in compliance with, but it's not 'sealed' with weather stripping or locked down if you will.
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Sorry for the confusion. The batteries are consider Sealed Batteries. There's no use access to the electrolyte. Batteries like you vehicle with the removable caps are not considered sealed. The Blue Top Optima are considered maintenance free or sealed batteries. That's the problem, the hydrogen gas released when charging is absorbed back into the electrolyte in Maintenance Free batteries and released into the atmosphere with standard batteries. One of the benefits of sealed or maintenance free batteries they can inside the living area. One of negative sides sealed batteries can't be charged as rapidly. If the speed of charging is greater (release of hydrogen) than the absorption speed pressure builds up inside the battery. There's a relief valve that releases so the battery case doesn't explode when the inside pressure builds.
This is why I think it's a charging issue that usually doesn't happen except when the batteries are fully discharged.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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05-11-2013, 04:27 PM
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#65
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles
Thanks, Mimi...
Did it smell like rotten eggs? I ask because for me that would mean hydrogen sulfide....and for some reason I have it in my head that one of the advantages of AGM batteries is supposed to be that they don't/won't give off this gas-?
Francesca
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Generally speaking you're correct. However see my above post for a possible explanation of what happened. There might not be enough gas to smell with burning created by the sulfuric acid and gas released by that.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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05-11-2013, 04:27 PM
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#66
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Senior Member
Name: M
Trailer: Influx
Usa
Posts: 145
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Yes, rotten egg is an apt description. The sealed batteries are advertised as not giving off gases. They didn't work as advertised for us!
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05-11-2013, 04:57 PM
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#67
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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I have the same converter with a Lifeline AGM. It charges fine. Unlike flooded cells, AGMs have a very low self discharge. I leave mine for 5 months and it drops about 0.3 volts. But, I fully charge it before I put it away for the winter. As I said earlier, I suspect the converter malfunctioned. Raz
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05-11-2013, 05:51 PM
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#68
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Junior Member
Name: jeff
Trailer: 84 16' Casita
Oregon
Posts: 17
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I have a progressive dynamic 4045 and there is a jumper for voltage charging for gel battries. Take the face plate cover off by prying at the bottom and then once the bottom pops off push up to get the top off. It will give you acess to the jumper, it is in the upper left hand corner and it will have wires on it, twist them together and make sure it is on both pins. It will say "lead acid off, gel on" . That will regulate the voltage for gel battries. That will keep it from letting out the smoke. there is no mention of this jumper in the manual, or on there web page but I do know that gel and agm battries need to be charged the last 10% at a lower voltage than 14.4 volts. That is what I believe this jumper does.
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05-11-2013, 06:29 PM
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#69
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Senior Member
Name: David
Trailer: 1978 Trillium 1300
Cumberland, Indiana
Posts: 392
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I never really thought I would state this on this forum, but, I really have to agree with everything Byron has stated about this problem.
He is 100% correct! IMHO (And his too!)
Thanks!
Spanke
__________________
Trilliums Rock!
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05-11-2013, 07:38 PM
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#70
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Senior Member
Name: Paul
Trailer: '07 Scamp 16' SD
Wisconsin
Posts: 110
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So I have a question related to all the issues discussed here. These are AGM batteries, so a single bad cell isn't supposed to cause a full short in the battery correct?
But let's say a full short occurred in one of the batteries. How would the converter handle that situation? Could that have caused this issue?
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05-12-2013, 02:12 AM
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#71
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanke
I never really thought I would state this on this forum, but, I really have to agree with everything Byron has stated about this problem.
He is 100% correct! IMHO (And his too!)
Thanks!
Spanke
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I wouldn't say I was 100% correct. In fact I'm probably not 100% correct.
I do believe my theory of what happened is a starting point. There's a lot of assumptions in my analysis, that's how failure analysis works. Actually we know very little at this stage of the game.
We know that something was released from the batteries that resulted in the appearance of something that was assumed to be smoke, enough so that the smoke alarm went off. And that's about all we really know. The rest is based on possible causes and possible assumptions. One of the first assumptions was the failure of both batteries was unlikely, however it's not impossible that both batteries developed a shorted or low resistance cell. One my assumptions was the batteries were fully discharged, that might not be the case.
I assumed that most probable cause the batteries expelling what we believe is electrolyte was over heating of the batteries during charging. I believe this is pretty close. Was it because of charge rate, or simply "overcharge". I can make a case for either way.
Failure analysis is a system of knowing what happened, knowing how it should have worked, then developing theories based on that knowledge. The assumptions used are systematically shown to valid or not, new theories are formed based on the new information and process goes on. It's been said it's like peeling an onion, each layer is discarded with new information until you reach the center. Sometimes there's only one layer sometimes there's hundreds.
The one thing that bothers me about this case is it's quite possible that the "root cause" will never be found. Another possibility is the "tongue in the side of cheek" fix. Unfortunately I've seen this way too many times.
The tongue in the side of the cheek fix. When fishing all day and not catching a fish, one last cast before I give up. I place my tongue strongly against the inside of my right cheek and low behold I catch a fish. Therefore the answer to catching fish is the tongue strongly pressed against the inside of right cheek.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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05-12-2013, 03:02 AM
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#72
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennco
So I have a question related to all the issues discussed here. These are AGM batteries, so a single bad cell isn't supposed to cause a full short in the battery correct?
But let's say a full short occurred in one of the batteries. How would the converter handle that situation? Could that have caused this issue?
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If just one battery failed with a cell short, that battery could overheat, or more likely simply hog all the current and not allow the other one to charge. In our case here both batteries were expelling a liquid, which indicates an over pressure inside the case. One battery with a shorted cell cannot cause the other battery to increase internal pressure.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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05-12-2013, 03:09 AM
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#73
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P. Raz
I have the same converter with a Lifeline AGM. It charges fine. Unlike flooded cells, AGMs have a very low self discharge. I leave mine for 5 months and it drops about 0.3 volts. But, I fully charge it before I put it away for the winter. As I said earlier, I suspect the converter malfunctioned. Raz
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Here's some more assumptions is form of ifs. If the fridge has an electronic control panel was that on, is there a propane detector installed. Those two item could drain the batteries in a few months.
However, after thinking about this a bit more, I'm more inclined to think the converter attempted to charge to a voltage above where the maximum charge point is. (my solar charger charges to 13.8 for sealed batteries)
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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05-12-2013, 03:57 AM
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#74
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
Here's some more assumptions is form of ifs. If the fridge has an electronic control panel was that on, is there a propane detector installed. Those two item could drain the batteries in a few months.
However, after thinking about this a bit more, I'm more inclined to think the converter attempted to charge to a voltage above where the maximum charge point is. (my solar charger charges to 13.8 for sealed batteries)
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Don't forget, these folks were camping. The tow vehicle would have charged the battery along the way.
Long distance troubleshooting is a nice academic exercise but I will be surprised if we find out the cause here. Take care, Raz
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05-12-2013, 04:00 AM
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#75
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Senior Member
Trailer: Eggcamper 17 ft Electric
Posts: 409
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I'm not sure what caused this situation. But, if this were my trailer, I'd seriously look into moving the batteries outside, to the tongue. While sealed batteries present less danger from hydrogen gas, it's still scary to think of a potential battery explosion with only a thin piece of plywood and perhaps a mattress separating my head from disaster. Also, some type of non-conductive strap should be used to secure the battery(ies) and the entire electrical load for the battery(ies) should also be fused right at the positive battery terminal. Just my opinion.
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05-12-2013, 06:29 AM
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#76
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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If I was Chandler, I'd have a three way call with the converter manufacturer and the battery manufacturer. It sounds like there may be a fundamental design issue. The solution may be as simple as setting the converter to the gel battery mode.
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05-12-2013, 06:55 AM
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#78
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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It's unfortunate that the name of the thread has been changed to include "Parkliner". It implies a problem with the trailer when neither the batteries nor the converter were made by them. Raz
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05-12-2013, 08:08 AM
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#79
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Senior Member
Name: Mark
Trailer: Parkliner
Alabama
Posts: 172
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Could someone attach a picture of where they have added a circuit breaker to the positive battery terminal? Google seaches turn up nada! I am wondering if there is something tailor made for this purpose.
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