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Old 11-30-2019, 02:54 AM   #81
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One of the most interesting videos I've seen was taken from inside a car at Bonneville going over 400 MPH. The camera is looking straight ahead.

The mile markers rise up into view from over the horizon and go by, as the car speeds along. The car is going "around the world" for a short distance.

The explanation of the Suez canal being "lower" at one end, than at the other, is silly. Both ends, and all of the middle, are exactly the same distance from the center of gravity, on a curve. One end is not "lower". Lower and higher are just references to something's position relative to the Earth.

Sometimes, late at night, in the middle of nowhere, on a long, long stretch of straight highway, I'm not sure if I'm rolling along on the surface of the Earth, or if I'm stationary and the big ball is rolling the other way, beneath me, as I remain in one place. Who is stationary?

When asked to prove the Earth is round, what can be said? How can someone "prove" a baseball is round? Only that it meets the definition, just as the Earth does. The proof is everywhere and seen every day. But on a scale that we might not be used to describing that way.

In the end, everytime the flat earth theory rears its head, it seems to be coming from someone just trying to get a rise out of someone else, and therefore, not an interesting topic.
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Old 11-30-2019, 09:05 AM   #82
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I meant "scientific consensus". To be taken together, not separately. When enough studies have been done that different groups can duplicate results, over and over, there is scientific consensus.

A ton of the confusion out on what's healthy and what's not is because individual studies get written about in the press. Coffee is good for you. No, it's bad for you. No, wait, it's good for you. There isn't consensus yet, but each study is getting press. Often, if you go read scientific publications that are cited in articles or conclusions, you'll find they don't support the conclusions at all. The person writing the article just took what they wanted and assumed what it meant.

Unfortunately the same can be done for energy. There's no such thing as a "clean" internal combustion engine, just like "clean coal" is a complete joke. I understand that we need fossil fuels still and most electric cars are still run by them, but the fact the renewable energy seems offensive to people, and is politically charged, is ridiculous to me. Anyway as Alex illustrated, it depends on how you look at it, how you run the numbers, and what you decide to include or ignore. "Models" and figures have built-in assumptions. Change those assumptions and you get different numbers. I'll see Floyd's "liars don't figure, but figures don't lie", and raise him "there's lies, damn lies, and statistics". If you don't understand what numbers went into a conclusion, what assumptions went into the model, you can't 100% trust the results.

We've set up a way of life that is not sustainable. If we can't even talk about what to do to change course because it's somehow un American or not democratic and not free market capitalism (which never existed in this country), well, maybe the planet is better off without us anyway. I go back & forth, but I'm generally not very optimistic about the future of humanity.
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Old 11-30-2019, 09:30 AM   #83
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Talking Microwave system over the Med

146 miles of straight line transmission over water. FWIW this IS a controversial subject:


On a 'ball earth', there should be a bulge of curved earth, between the towers equal to 8" X 146 squared, or 8" X 21,316.. or 170,528 inches, or 14,211 FEET
wh is 2.7 miles high, for the bulge..which wd block the MW transmissions.

FWIW I recently asked a pilot buddy of mine why there are no direct flights between S America and Australia. ..but only flights which go 'up' to the areas of Bahrain then 'down' to Australia...He had no answer and still has not come up w any after weeks. I also tried to get him to explain how his jet can travel West at 550 mph, and 'make the same distance' as if it travels East at 550 mph..since the earth is allegedly supposed to be spinning westward at 1000 mph. Again he had no answer. Neither do I.

One or the other is correct..either ball or flat. Interesting to investigate.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:04 AM   #84
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All this talk about science...
Well and good, but irrelevant unless you believe that human psychology is science.
All social structures are at their roots, systems of coercion and domination.
"Science" is often misused as a bludgeon to forward a political agenda and truth becomes its first victim.
Rest assured that nearly every "movement" takes on a life of its own at some point which is far more cynical than altruistic.

The best excuse is often that the ends justify the means.
Some arguments can be VERY attractive...
So be the best steward you can be, but beware of charlatans seeking power.

Franz Mesmer thought he could cure disease with animal magnetism...
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:56 AM   #85
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A fellow drove a new electric car from New York to Los Angeles, and used only $3.12 worth of electricity. The drawback, however, is that the extension cord cost $19,678.00.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:57 AM   #86
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I have one year left of colidge. Then I will probably buy a Tesla Truck if they are out.
I think it is ugly, but I think so many other cars look exactly the same.
I want a vehicle that can tow once in a while, most trips are to work and back, grocery store or picking up mulch, plants and helping friends move things.
My travels are usually "to the next place that looks nice" rather than big cross country trips.
I would rather SCUBA dive one site for several days than drive to Disney.
Hopefully, I can afford one of these Teslas and still remain partially retired.
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Old 11-30-2019, 12:19 PM   #87
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146 miles of straight line transmission over water. FWIW this IS a controversial subject:


On a 'ball earth', there should be a bulge of curved earth, between the towers equal to 8" X 146 squared, or 8" X 21,316.. or 170,528 inches, or 14,211 FEET
wh is 2.7 miles high, for the bulge..which wd block the MW transmissions.

FWIW I recently asked a pilot buddy of mine why there are no direct flights between S America and Australia. ..but only flights which go 'up' to the areas of Bahrain then 'down' to Australia...He had no answer and still has not come up w any after weeks. I also tried to get him to explain how his jet can travel West at 550 mph, and 'make the same distance' as if it travels East at 550 mph..since the earth is allegedly supposed to be spinning westward at 1000 mph. Again he had no answer. Neither do I.

One or the other is correct..either ball or flat. Interesting to investigate.
This video explanation, used as "proof" that the Earth is flat, is a good example of using limited scientific information to "prove" a point, or influence the reader in a false way. In other words, using science to disprove science. Or using false science to influence opinion. It's a common practice used to influence those that already want to believe the premise, or don't want to bother to check it out for themselves.

Since we know the radio signals can reach the antenna, it's more important to try to figure out why, instead of using the actual results to support a false argument. A false argument that is being presented to influence beliefs, for some other purpose. To simply muddy the waters for personal gain.

Announcing that radio signals are strictly line of site is not entirely true. Mostly true in a practical sense, but not actually true. Obstacles that "block" are more like walls, mountains and trees, or even heavy rain. The curve of the Earth doesn't exactly "block" signals, and they don't just fly out into space. The effect is called "ducting".

"Tropospheric ducting is an atmospheric effect caused by a differential temperature layer that causes reflection or refraction of radio wave. These reflective layers can form a radio wave "duct", much like the ducts that are used to duct warm or cool air through our homes." (ham study.org)

Isn't that a much more sensible answer than claiming the earth must be flat?

So, once again, we see limited science and limited popular belief, being used to support a false claim, in order to "prove" a non-point, for someone's personal gain.

Countering ridiculous arguments tends to give them more credence in some cases. Maybe that is the real point of making such claims. Does any of this sound familiar when applied to other current topics? Does science always have to be the victim in such arguments? Is there no real curiosity, but just power hungry argument? How much non-science can our future take?

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming..................
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Old 11-30-2019, 12:35 PM   #88
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Unfortunately, Tesla has taken on two uphill battles at the same time. One is looking for acceptance of electric vehicles, which somehow seriously threatens many. And the other is looking for acceptance of radically different styling. All in the same vehicle! The styling alone will be used to argue against the vehicles. And of course, some arguments will be that they can't pull their enormous trailers at 80 miles per hour, up the Eisenhower grade, 15 times in a row, without refueling. So therefore it has no value at all, etc, etc, etc. Bla, bla, Bla.

Some of these arguments come from "flat earthers'", who can't accept that there might be some value in electric vehicles, and use the most extreme case to "prove" their point.

As Danny pointed out, this could be perfect for going to the store, driving to work, carrying small amounts of material or helpng others move, etc. And some will like it just because it's different or cheap to operate.
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Old 11-30-2019, 12:49 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Fred762 View Post
146 miles of straight line transmission over water. FWIW this IS a controversial subject:


On a 'ball earth', there should be a bulge of curved earth, between the towers equal to 8" X 146 squared, or 8" X 21,316.. or 170,528 inches, or 14,211 FEET
wh is 2.7 miles high, for the bulge..which wd block the MW transmissions.

FWIW I recently asked a pilot buddy of mine why there are no direct flights between S America and Australia. ..but only flights which go 'up' to the areas of Bahrain then 'down' to Australia...He had no answer and still has not come up w any after weeks. I also tried to get him to explain how his jet can travel West at 550 mph, and 'make the same distance' as if it travels East at 550 mph..since the earth is allegedly supposed to be spinning westward at 1000 mph. Again he had no answer. Neither do I.

One or the other is correct..either ball or flat. Interesting to investigate.
Both Lebanon and Cyprus have mountainous coastal terrain. To achieve 146 miles line of sight, both objects would be placed at roughly 2,940 feet (896m). This is derived by dividing 146/2 (signals "see" each other halfway), then using the nautical rule of thumb: Line of Sight (in nautical miles) = 1.17*√(Height of transmitter in feet), which has been successfully applied by sailors for hundreds of years and which I have personally observed to be true. I suspect that if you could pinpoint the location of these transmitting stations, they would both be on coastal mountains. Simple use of Google Maps straight line distance tool will show you that 146 miles provides numerous opportunities for "mountain to mountain" contact.

I saw in that video that the concerned citizen contacted "a lady" at the company who told him that the transmitters were mounted not more than 50 ft above the ground, but neglected to clarify which ground. I find the notion that they are mounted anywhere but mountains hard to believe. Of course I have no proof, and you could just insist that they are mounted right on the beach at sea level. I'm not interested in debating that or wasting any more of my day researching something that should be common sense. If we could simply mount line of sight transmitters at sea level and transmit over any distance, we wouldn't have transatlantic cables and wouldn't need satellite radios on ships to send/receive data. And yet...

To your "pilot buddy," have fun: https://www.metabunk.org/flat-earth-...america.t6483/. Short version: That flight does exist. Why don't you book it for next month? https://www.google.com/flights?lite=...QF*QF;sd:1;t:f (Edit to add: Noted that the flight linked has a layover. Is it possible that it doesn't make sense from a business perspective to fly this route non-stop?)

And if water "always finds its level," I've never understood why ships appear and disappear at about 12 miles in "unlimited" visibility. Or why taller ships or navigational aids appear over the "imaginary horizon" sooner than shorter ones. I'm sure flat earthers have some explanation for me, though, no matter how convoluted the logic.
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Old 11-30-2019, 01:26 PM   #90
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"I also tried to get him to explain how his jet can travel West at 550 mph, and 'make the same distance' as if it travels East at 550 mph..since the earth is allegedly supposed to be spinning westward at 1000 mph. Again he had no answer. Neither do I."

It's because distance is measured relative to something else, in this case, the Earth. The question adds nothing to the flat earth evidence. The distance travelled is relative to the Earth's surface, not the Universe. And the atmosphere is moving with the Earth, such that it appears to be not moving. You have to push through it either way you go. Indirectly, this is why rockets seeking orbit take off with the direction of the spin of the Earth. They already have a 1,000 MPH head start on their speed. But even that has nothing to do with how far Earth travels around the Sun during the trip, or how much closer the Milky Way gets to Andromeda during the flight. Distance and speed are discussed as how they relate to other objects.
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Old 11-30-2019, 01:31 PM   #91
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How could that BEE? Do you break out in HIVES?

I prefer to read a text but not watch a video too.
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Old 11-30-2019, 06:12 PM   #92
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[QUOTE=floyd;761866]All this talk about science...
Well and good, but irrelevant unless you believe that human psychology is science.
All social structures are at their roots, systems of coercion and domination.


Bingo! So is ALL politics.
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Old 11-30-2019, 06:31 PM   #93
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Here is a picture of the 146 mile line of sight mentioned in the supporting article.
Both radios on the ground, but not at sea level!



Relatively easy with the two mountains on each end.
From the mountain on Cyprus the red areas are line of sight.

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Old 12-01-2019, 10:50 AM   #94
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It's a well-known fact that there are Flat-Earthers all around the globe.

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Old 12-01-2019, 11:45 AM   #95
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Going not so green in the NW

Unfortunately, our hydroelectric power is under threat by environment groups who want our dams removed. All to help salmon populations. There are lawsuits against most of our dams, and all it will take is one whacko judge ruling to put us in a world of hurt.

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If your local utility uses natural gas to generate power, the efficiency is at best 60% (40% loss). Meanwhile, a natural gas furnace for the home can be purchased with 95% efficiency.

Its all about how the power is generated, along with the efficiency of the electric motor.

Coal is MUCH worse. On power generation, its only about 35% efficient. Tremendous loss means you have to burn more to generate the same amount of power.

Hydo power in the PNW has been green for decades.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:33 PM   #96
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Unfortunately, our hydroelectric power is under threat by environment groups who want our dams removed. All to help salmon populations. There are lawsuits against most of our dams, and all it will take is one whacko judge ruling to put us in a world of hurt.
It will take far more than "one whacko judge" to cause Hoover and Glen Canyon dams to be removed. Or should I just say, it will never happen. No way. Using a million barrels of fuel, years of labor and its cost, and then losing the power they provide is completely counterproductive and out of proportion with the benefit. There is no "one whacko judge" with such power.

The folks advocating dam removal, on that scale, will have to convince the majority of the public why it makes sense to use so much fuel to tear something down and "restore" the view, then replace the energy source with something else, all at a time when electrical demand continues to grow and entire cities depend on the sources we are now using.

Irrational fear of the bogeyman is one of the reasons we can't have a calm and sensible conversation, Nationally, about these issues. The effort becomes how to win, instead of what is best for all. Sensible conversation devolves into bumper sticker type name calling to incite fear and anger.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:56 PM   #97
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It's a well-known fact that there are Flat-Earthers all around the globe.

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Old 12-01-2019, 12:59 PM   #98
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Lucky for us in the PNW to have the Columbia! The salmon ladders do see a lot of salmon use, and we still have salmon, though the local Orcas are taking more than some people think is fair. Yet people pay good money to tour Puget Sound to look at the Orcas...it's a huge, interconnected web, life is, and most people understand that.

Some, not so much.


The power company will send a worker to our house once every two years, to give us LED lightbulbs and tell us where we can bolster our energy savings...we're stretching our electric capacity here more each year. Conservation matters to Puget Power! It's far cheaper for them to help us save electricity than to try to find new places to build dams. After the big ones already built, The Dalles Dam and Grand Coulee, there are no really good sites left.

I cringe every time I see a new housing development going up. But whatcha gonna do? Conserve a little more, I guess.

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Old 12-01-2019, 02:13 PM   #99
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floyd,
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:03 PM   #100
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It's a well-known fact that there are Flat-Earthers all around the globe.

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Now, this is a great piece of wisdom. Thank you, K!
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