Towing with a Honda Accord ??

[Johan]

I more or less stumbled upon this forum a couple of weeks ago. I used to think fiberglass RV's are ugly and unappealing, but after reading more about them and discovering the passion that owners have about them - suddenly I wan one!
Problem is, I did not purchase my car with towing in mind. I drive a 2005 Honda Accord, 2.4 L, 4 cyl with 5 speed manual transmission. It is a brilliant vehicle, but according to the manual it can only tow 1000 pounds.
I am hoping than someone in this forum can help me understand why the tow ratings are so low in North America. In Europe the Honda Accord is rated to tow 1500 KG (around 3500 pounds!). The European version of the Honda Accord is sold in Canada as the Accra TSX - but here it is rated to tow 1000 pounds - the same vehicle.
I am puzzled because I used to tow a 2000 pound travel trailers all over Europe with a 1982 Toyota Camry - it had 1.8 liter engine, 90 hp, and there was no problem with engine, clutch, brakes or anything else, even in the mountains. Also, Europeans don't have big trucks and Suv's, so they tow with what they have - mainly sedans with 4 cyl engines. You see them everywhere you go in Europe and it is perfectly legal. What is the difference? Why can I not hook a 2000 pound trailer up to my Accord?

[Benita]

Why can I not hook a 2000 pund trailer up to my Accord?

You can do nearly anything you want to do. The question is whether doing so is wise.

• Hooking up when your owner's manual says not to means you may void your vehicle's warranties.
  
• You may also void your insurance coverage if you ignore the manufacturer's written safety warnings should there be an accident. Depending on what happened, the police may weigh your tow vehicle and the towed trailer. If your tow weight ratios are outside of accepted safety standards, you may be at fault.
  
• The high probability of litigation should something not go right is something manufacturers try to mitigate when they sell products here. They have to add in a safety buffer to protect themselves from idiots who will push all cautions beyond reasonable constraints.
  
• Non-US products may have some difference in their specs from the US version.

Others can supplement my comments. This is one short list. There are other lists, safety and wear and tear on systems for example.

[Andrew Gibbens]

Also, Europeans dont have big trucks and Suv's, so they tow with what they have - mainly sedans with 4 cyl engines. You see them everywhere you go in Europe and it is perfectly legal. What is the difference? Why can I not hook a 2000 pund trailer up to my Accord?

Johan,

I have been curious about this difference too - I don't pretend to know the answer, but from what I've picked up, I would suggest the following contribute to it:

- Some North American-spec cars have lower-spec brakes than equivalent EU ones;

- NA-spec cars will nearly always have softer springs and dampers than EU ones;

- EU drivers accept that towing requires great care and must be done at lower speeds than regular traffic, whereas my experience of NA drivers is that they expect to be able to tow at normal traffic speeds - I can't comment on whether they expect to execrise greater care.

- In North America all maunfacturers have larger (and more profitable?) models in their line-up, so there is not much incentive to give good tow ratings to smaller vehicles.

I suspect these are listed in reverse order of importance!

The curious thing about allowing higher tow ratings in Yurp is that these are combined with lower hitch weights - the EU Accord is rated to tow 1500kg (3300lb) but its maximum hitch weight is 75kg (165lb), or 5%.

It's curious but, as you know, the roads of Yurp are not lined with overturned trailers......

Andrew

[Roger H]

Andrew, being a near-resident of Yurp has a better first-hand perspective than I; however, I have noticed that axle placement on trailers manufactured in Yurp are significanly further forward than those manufactured in North America. That axle placement would cause the tongue weights to be half or less than half of what the same U.S. built trailer would have. The difference in weight distribution might also cause trailers built in Yurp not to behave as well at our freeway speeds. I have been told that most recreational towing driving in Yurp is done at less than 60km/hr (45mph)?

While the Accord may be able to move that much weight, the suspension/unibody may not be up for a 200 lb tongue weight. Further the Yurpeen hitch styles are also signficantly different from what is used in N.A.

Models that look similar by the same manufacturer may, in fact, have wildly varying components. The N.A. spec Ford Ranger pickup alone, for example, is variously rated between 2,000 and 6,000 lbs depending on the drivetrain and equipment.

Towing a 2000 lb trailer in N.A. with a car rated by the manufacturer to tow a max of 1,000 lbs is probably not a good idea.

Roger

[Cam A]

Seems funny that both Australia and Europe have it wrong. My suspicion is that the low tow ratings in North America (unfortunately Canada gets their tow ratings from the US) have more to do with the litigious nature of our society than physics.

[Roger H]

Cam, who has it wrong? I doubt either is "wrong". I suspect it's just different towing "atmospheres", and there are signficantly different laws to be adhered to. Perhaps the weight of the airbags, safety glass and other 'stuff' required in N.A. lowers the tow rating? Perhaps it's a max 100lb hitch weight which allows for a 2,000 lb trailer in Yurp but only a 1,000 lb trailer here... who knows? Conjecture about the differences, however, don't change the manufacturer's ratings.

For whatever reason, if the N.A. Accord is rated by Honda at 1,000 lbs and you knowingly tow a 2,000 lb trailer and have a failure, from a legal perspective, you're toast.

Roger

[Susan Tiller]

Hi Johan!

The voice of stupid here. I did tow my egg home from North Carolina and on one trip to south GA with a 2001, 4 cyl, Toyota Corolla. It is doable, but........ not easy and so very not smart. As soon as I could I bought my Toyota Tocoma 6 cyl.

We all have to learn. I was lucky with no wrecks, no vehicle destroyed.

[Normand Choiniere]

My Honda CR-V can tow twice the weight in Australia! Same car, same motor, same suspension...

And every country have its rationale behind their standard... I would not be incline to consider the Australians or Europeans as uncounscious and more dangerous people than North-Americans...

My own conclusion is that there are no really reliable figures.

[Gina D.]

The same rating differences from oz and the us applies to my Element.

As Roger touched on, one of the biggest differences I can see is interstates. We tow farther and faster than any countries in the world. Altho I suspect much of the ratings have a LOT to do with lawyers, there is that one undeniable factor of speeds towed at.

The only State I have been in, however, that does not limit your tow speed to 55, is Arizona. I haven't towed in any State other than the Western ones, so I am sure others allow a 70mph tow as well. I still won't do it.

Having been a lifetime Honda owner, an Accord being on my list of past cars, I would have a tendency to feel the car is more durable than any other car in it's class, but I still would avoid towing with it. There just isn't enough bulk there. I like my trailer to stay behind me, not on my roof should there be a quick stop, or on it's side should I need to make an evasive manuever.

I certainly don't want to sit in a courtroom for months on end either.

[Cam A]

Any Aussies out there that can comment on the local towing practises?

[evan]

Johan, the reasons for lower tow limits is not really mechanical differences between Euro spec. and U.S. spec cars. Transportation systems are typically designed to 1.5 X worst case. If they say 1000lbs you can probably go to 1500 with no problems. The difference in the US really has more to do with driving conditions, statistics and legal reasons. We like to sue, so manufactures typically tend to be very conservative in this country. Don't tow with your Accord. Sell it while it is still new and then get a Pilot or even a little Element.

[Johan]

Thank you to all of you for your valuable input! I am extremely impressed with the level of though that went in to the replies you gave me. The warranty of my vehicle did not concern me too much as I will be passing 60,000 km within the next couple of months and that ends it anyway. What really made me change my mind and give up on the idea was the comment about the insurance - I would never want to drive around with no insurance coverage.

I guess I will have to see if my 1994 Chevy Astro is still up to towing. It has 280,000 km on it but seems to be ig great shape. It aldready has the hithch and controller for electric trailer brakes. I have never towed with it and neither did the previous owner. The only concern I have is that the van does not seem to have a lot of reserves in terms of power.

[evan]

It probably has a 6-cyl in it? As long as your astro is in good mechanical shape it should easily tow a 13-16ft fiberglass trailer. With everything you mentioned it sounds like your van is ready to go. Small fiberglass tailers are very easy to tow even if you have never towed anything before. Just practice a little, you'll be fine.

Thank you to all of you for your valuable input! I am extremely impressed with the level of though that went in to the replies you gave me. The warranty of my vehicle did not concern me too much as I will be passing 60,000 km within the next couple of months and that ends it anyway. What really made me change my mind and give up on the idea was the comment about the insurance - I would never want to drive around with no insurance coverage.

I guess I will have to see if my 1994 Chevy Astro is still up to towing. It has 280,000 km on it but seems to be ig great shape. It aldready has the hithch and controller for electric trailer brakes. I have never towed with it and neither did the previous owner. The only concern I have is that the van does not seem to have a lot of reserves in terms of power.

[Palmer M]

Your Astro should have the 4.3 V6 if it is a passenger version. Very few of the Astros had 4 cylinders.
I have no problems towing my 16' with a 3.9 V6 Dakota.
Best of Luck!
P

[Johan]

Your Astro should have the 4.3 V6 if it is a passenger version. Very few of the Astros had 4 cylinders.
I have no problems towing my 16' with a 3.9 V6 Dakota.
Best of Luck!
P

My Astro is a 4.3L V6 passenger van. It is the shorter version of the Astro. The engine seems to be in excellent shape, it runs like new, uses no oil, does not smoke and has no leaks anywhere. The transmission may need attention before I tow anything with it. I think it could shift a little smoother under load, altohugh I have no experience with these vehicles when new - I have only driven 10,000 km in it myself.
I usually drive the vehicle around full of barbecues since that is my line of work and it handles it very well.

[Roger H]

Johann, I towed a 1961 Airstream Bambi 16' trailer with a '98 Astro AWD 4.3l v-6 auto. When properly equipped, the Astro is just about the perfect tow vehicle for small trailers. Make sure you have the tranny cooler installed, and you may want to consider a weight distributing hitch as the rear suspension tends to be soft on the Astro and will sag with not much weight on the hitch. You'll also want to make sure that your Astro has some stiff-sidewall tires on it and air the rears up to max. Soft sidewall tires on the Astro make the ride really plush, but they also allow a trailer to drag the van over the contact patch giving a very squirrelly ride while towing. NOT fun! I'd also strongly recommend that you use trailer brakes, especially with the short version of the Astro. When bad things happen towing, they happen fast and even faster in a short wheelbase tow vehicle.

Good luck!

Roger

[Eugene]

Hello,

I was in Europe this winter. I went to a small unofficial gathering of travel trailers and slept in an "Eriba Troll".
I can bring a few comments regarding some points mentioned in this thread.

> I have been told that most recreational towing driving in Yurp is done at less than 60km/hr (45mph)?

I hear often this kind of comment, meanwhile, I have no idea where in Europe they tow at that speed.
My understanding is the towing speed limit is around 80 - 90 km/h depending the country.
When I asked the drivers at what speed they usually tow, the answers were between 80 km/h and 130 km/h (on freeways), which is more or less between 55 and 80 mph (130 km/h is over legal speed limit, I think everywhere).

While it is correct they tow often with smaller cars, they seems to tow faster on flat road, freeways, etc. and slower on mountain road.

> In Europe the Honda Accord is rated to tow 1500 KG (around 3500 pounds!).

It may not be the same in every country. Countries with mostly mountains, usually have a lower towing rate than flat land countries, but I have no idea for your specific model if it is the case or not.
Same for travel trailers, some trailers models are sold in a few countries, but the models have different specs.
A silly example would be like if Casita, Scamp or Trillum had a 17 ft with similare beds and kitchen location, but the model for Florida would have different brake than the model for Colorado, then some states could simply not buy this model but a special one might be available or not for them.

> US really has more to do with driving conditions, statistics and legal reasons.

I seem to agree with the last part, "legal reasons"...
Lawsuits are like a new industry, it almost does not seems to exist yet, at least at the private citizen level.

Regarding your Astro Van, I knew somebody that was towing with one (California), he seemed happy with its towing capability.

I tow with an Aerostar, I added a transmission cooler for peace of mind, it does help a lot.
On mountain roads, I just tow at slower speed, to prevent overheating, especially in the desert areas.

[Bob Cupp]

One reason that some people need a V-10 Ford F350 to pull a 13-16' frailer is the amount of "STUFF" they put in their trailer. My 13' Love Bug weighs 980 lbs with a full lp tank and a spare. Ready to travel it weighs about 1100 lbs. I don't carry alot of permenant stuff. In my single life, I did most of my traveling by motorcycle so I am good at packing very light. I can actually pull my Love Bug with my Geo Prizm if needed. I increase my following distance and keep the speed below 55.

My preference is to tow with my EXT AWD Astro with tow package. It is rated for 5400 lbs and does not know that the Love Bug is there. The Astro is a great tow vehicle. It has tranny cooler, oil cooler, power steering fluid cooler (the brakes are not vaccum boost, they are run by the PS pump), and a 15 qt radiator. That thing was build to work.

The only reason I pull with the Prizm is when we need the pop-up and the Love Bug for the weekend. We sometimes have alot of extra kids along. We never say no to friends of our kids, we adopt everyone. Sometimes we have an extra 10 kids for the weekend. Finding a spot is no problems because my parents own a Tree Farm that we camp at. Sometime we have 30 or 40 people there for holiday weekends.

[Johan]

My Astro is a 1994, it is the short version and only has RWD with no locking differential. I would think that the short version is not at any disadvantage at towing as the difference in lenght is entirely behind the rear axle. As far as I know the wheelbase is identical, but the short version has vary little overhang behind the rear axle. That should only be an advantage, if I remember correcty. I believe the 94 has less hp than newer versions, it does not seem particularly powerful up the hills, even without load. Although the van drives very nicely and shows little sign og wear, I am concerned about the mileage - over 280,000 km. Does anyone tow with vehicles that have accumulated that kind of mileage?

[Benita]

My GMC Safari, Chevy Astro twin, has more than 100,000 miles, approaching 150,000 miles on it and its still towing. At this point my confidence in it is dwindling. That is more due to the abuse its received than anything.