Travel with Casita in the winter to AZ & Utah

[RV1]

Hi All,

Just a few questions for those who had done these before.

I am planning to take my 16' Casita towing it behind my F150 4x4 to Sedona, Grand Canyon, through Zion and Monument Valley. Since my truck is 4x4, will there be any issue with..

1. Winter weather, like snow, sleet, etc?
2. Will the 2 full tanks be enough for winter use like minor cooking and heating?
3. Places to park/camp the RVs in the winter? Will there be an issue with the dump station?
4. Other unexpected from your experience?

Any good places to visit in the winter while towing a Casita?

Thank you.

[Dan Meyer]

1) Take it slow. I almost ended up in the ditch driving too fast while towing on a snow covered back road.

2) Two full tanks will be enough for a while. Each tank holds around 400,000 BTU's of propane, enough for about 25 hours of furnace run time on each tank. A bigger problem will be running your furnace. The solution to this is to camp where you have electricity available.

3) Plan ahead and make sure your desired campground is available and electricity is on. Call and ask about showers and rest rooms facilities as well to avoid surprises. The problem at the dump station is two-fold. First, you will likely need to shovel it out yourself. Second, the valve for emptying your waste tank will be frozen and will not open. If the weather is above freezing, find a place to empty your holding tanks.

4) In the event something comes up (extreme weather, mechanical problems, who knows what) know where hotels and motels are in the area where you are traveling.

Be careful and have fun!


--Dan Meyer

[RV1]

Hi Dan,

Thank you very much for sharing your experience. We definitely will take it slow, keep a close watch on the weather and plan ahead as we venture out to these amazing destinations.

Happy Holidays!!
Jon

[Marv]

I have a few thoughts.

First, all those places you mentioned get some real wintry weather. Keep an eye on the forecast and be prepared to hunker down somewhere if it gets bad (food, propane, etc.)

When dry camping in cold weather, we consume a 20-pound bottle of propane in around 10 days. That's for cooking, heating and the refrigerator. I bought a propane bottle that has a gas gauge. It's not super accurate but close enough.

I know folks who camp regularly in winter. They keep their trailer winterized and don't use the systems. Instead, they carry bottled water and use the facilities at the campground.

[Artist Chic]

What a nice trip you have planned. Will you be boondocking or at campsites?

If it is cold in Sedona, you can always come a little farther south. It was 44 around 6 a.m. this morning in Phoenix at South Mountain. It never gets very cold here-I've had my condo for 12 years.

You may want to look into hipcamp.com . There are beautiful sites in all price ranges and many with electricity.

I left Minnesota in October of '20 after getting an heavy snowfall and was stranded in an hotel in Rapid City for 5 days. The beautiful thing about towing your hotel, if you run into snow you are already home.

Sounds like a great trip. Enjoy and stay safe!

[Dbasdan]

It's been in the 20's and 30's this week during the morning in Sedona. We are here for two weeks in a timeshare. I've noticed what looks like BLM camping about 7 miles West of Sedona on 89A. There are several RV parks close by and in Cottonwood for dumping. It's been in the high to mid 50's during the afternoon. Of course weather conditions are changeable.

[dfandrews]

We did that trip 3 years ago. Mesa (E of Phoenix) was in the 40's at night - 1240' elev.. We then went north to visit Sedona (4300 ft.) and Jerome. It was 50's/60's and sunny. We camped at Dead Horse Ranch SP in Cottonwood (3750'). Had electricity at the site, and had remembered to take our portable electric heater, so we didn't have to use our furnace. It was 20's at night, w/ snow on the ground from the day before storm.


Grand Canyon is much higher elevation (7000'-south rim), so when we got there, it was 9°, and never got above freezing the days we were there. Left after 2 nights.


Bottom line: check the weather; elevation matters.

[rlaggren]

Door snakes and gaffer's tape to seal your home when it gets cold and/or windy. Wind steals heat fast. You will likely need to seal around the fridge and heater itself, the top vent, the door. Maybe some cabinets. Get plenty of tape.


Stock 4 extra blankets _and_ a heavy comforter. Double that, if you need to, to cover 2 people. "Thrift" stores are your friend, but no assurance you get blankets big enough - hence the extras. Small blankies are good for extra cover over the feet. Maybe add a foam "pad" on top the mattress - you need insulation below as well as on top. Slippers so no screaming when your feet hit the floor in the morning. Thick pajamas if you wear that stuff; else just a real long very heavy shirt. "Thrift" stores are your friend; look in the XXX mens shirt section. Balaclavas; silk works well, but so does other material. Look in motorcycle dealers and shops; maybe bicycle shops. The head loses more heat faster than any other part of the body; night caps just come off the first time you roll over. Small porta pottie or something to do that job. Don't want to go out in the cold. Porta potties and piss bottles don't cause as many plumbing problems.



Make sure you understand your heater and then make sure it works, first time every time. If it uses a pilot, stock a couple "clickers" to light it. Install a two-tank valve that switches automatically and check each morning to know when it flips. Huge bummer to run out at 4am. If it needs electricity, find out how much and compare that with what your battery can supply. Install enough battery for 12 hrs, at least. Figure out how long it will take to recharge; try to make sure you can do it in 4-6 hrs. Have a way to monitor your battery.


Try to find out what wind does to your heater. The one in my Surfside is old and goes a little spastic if too much wind hits the vent at the wrong angle, although it continues to provide some heat. Knowing the heater's habits could save real unhappiness some nights - just park facing the right direction.



Make sure your stove works and you can fire it w/out electricity. Keep water and canned soup or such for a week. Tea and maybe coffee. Chocolate.Heating the _inside_ of you works much much better than heating the outside. Energy food - nuts, granola. Jerky? Hate the stuff, myself. Stove heat is kinda your heat of last resort, but it can help.


Decide what kind of ventilation you need to use your furnace safely. That varies by type of funace and state of repair. You need some ventilation regardless because otherwise your cozy (or not) trailer will develop indoor weather, with everything dripping water. Your windows will likely condense and drip on whatever is below them anyway.





As somebody else said, find the hotels along your route, make some kind of list with phone numbers and addresses so you don't need inet to find them. Keep a hotel fund of $500+ and don't _ever_ let it get low. This is your safety net and having the smarts and capability to wimp out may save you serious health problems.


Carry trailer locks, as good as you can find/afford. This would be for hitch pin, hitch clamp pin, hitch cup and (if you can afford it) tire boot. If you can use removable chains, do so; many a trailer has been towed of "ad hoc" by wrapping it's own safety chains around the thief's vehicle - removing them forces thieves to provide their own chains. All this paranoia will allow you to "abandon" your trailer roadside with some small peace of mind if you have to. That will make it easier to make the safe decision.


Road service. AAA seems to be the best. Their premium package, any vehicle, anywhere, any driver seems well worth it. As of last year, they say it will cover your trailer, also. YMMV.



None of the above is apocalyptic. It's what I travel with and what I learned from spending a week snow bound in MT in my Surfside in 15F. nights. If the wind is blowing, don't make bets on how long the propane will last.


40F. interior is no problem sleeping with good bedding. 30F. is ok with balaclava, socks and light gloves. Your nose gets pretty cold, but then, it's possible to sleep with your head covered... My experience with trailer and boat indicates that 15F. difference between indoor and outdoor temps is doing good. On very still days, no wind, maybe you get up to 20F. difference.




Cheers,
Rufus

[sunnyone]

A lot of good tips here, Rufus. Could you elaborate on how and where you use gaffer tape?

[rlaggren]

Hi Sunny

In this context, I use it to seal air leaks in the trailer. When I was stuck in the truckstop in MT, the first thing I did was to tape the edges of all windows on the outside. I have jalousie windows so I also taped the edge of each individual louver.


Inside, I taped around the edges of the reefer cabinet to stop the breeze. Also around the furnace edges, ditto. Each time I returned to the trailer from truckstop where I spent many hours each day staying warmer and talking with people, I taped around the edges of the door. It took a couple of minutes and it hugely reduced the drafts. I left some of the bottom of the door "open" for ventilation and also did not tape the overhead vent, just closed it as tightly as possible.



There was _plenty_ of air change in the trailer. I was very fortunate the wind wasn't stronger and that I had parking neighbors which put the trailer in some "wind shadow". I ran the furnace 24/7 and went through a 20# tank of propane about every 24-30 hours. It turns out, happily, that propane _will_ pressurize and do it's job at 15F. outside temps. I can't speak for lower temps.



Hope that helps.


Rufus

[sunnyone]

Thank you, Rufus.
Since we don’t have a furnace in our Scamp, I’m very interested in any ways to keep us warmer in cold weather. I have already made Reflectix covers for all the windows, and have put interlocking foam tiles on the floor. (We also have a small electric heater for when we have AC.)

[rlaggren]

Hi Sunny


This is very long because it contains a safety blurb. An opinionated safety blurb.



These are off-the-cuff thoughts. What I would try, maybe. But one HUGE CAVEAT: When using any flame appliance of any kind in a closed space, you _must_ beware of CO poisoning. The only prevention is adequate ventilation. Obviously, this reduces the heating. What's "adequate" ventilation? The least amount of air change that doesn't get you CO poisoning. How do you find the perfect weather stripping that gives you that sweet spot? Experiment. It will be different for each trailer, each weatherstripping plan you might try. Bugger, eh?



I would buy a good CO detector and use it to test different configurations. Do some serious googling - try very hard to understand your options first. Don't skimp on the homework. Then go shopping. You want one that is consistent and gives the most sensitive readings you can afford. "wirecutter.com" might be a place to start, but don't stop there. Do a lot of reading if you want to actually give yourself a good chance at a healthy home. "heatinghelp.com" also has some good info, but it's search feature isn't the best - so google using "site:heatinghelp.com" as your first search term. Also, by including the term "forums" in any google search you can find discussions as opposed to sales promo. If you want to look at the very best, search "flight" "cockpit" "CO detector". Do note that a CO detector is a "consumable". Ie., they degrade and must be replaced. Read carefully the spec's so you know what you are buying. CO detectors are sold in varying sensitivities because 1) Fire departments and building inspectors discovered that people simply disabled or tossed them if they were too sensitive and alarmed frequently. Thus laws and code provide for a very high threshold for consumer products. That threshold is determined by two separate specs: a- the ppm which triggers the alarm and b- how many minutes the CO must exceed that threshold BEFORE the alarm sounds 2) Cost. As you can see if you look at alarms intended for use by maintenance professionals or in airplanes, the best alarms are very expensive. Read the discussions on "heatinghelp.com", spend a few hours finding what's out there and what the "buzz" is for various products... Get one.


Then test your CO alarm (might have to google to find out reasonable ways to do that). DO NOT TRUST any critical safety equipment out-of-the-box. I experience 15-20% DOA on all types of electronics, regardless of brand or price or appearance of the product on arrival. The world we live in. Pass it on. Teach your children. Sometimes it matters a _lot_.



Then install your Co detector and start experimenting with various levels of sealing your trailer and with various ways of heating it.



I would start out with a base configuration sealing your trailer as absolutely knat-ass tight as you can possibly make it. Tape and seal _everything_. Caulk any exterior penetrations: Wiring, propane, drains... Every single hole in your shell - you want those sealed under any/all circumstances, so this work is permanent (excepting maybe shore power). Tape tight windows, vent(s), reefer cabinet, door (all the way around. Then, if possible spend a couple days in it that way at some suitably low temp. You _may_ be able to get away with no heat appliance at all, especially with two people onboard. It will probably get real "stuffy" and you will need to see how bad (and it can get very bad) condensation becomes. I would deal with the condensation first because you _have_ to deal with that regardless of anything else. Start opening up "cracks", door, vent, maybe one window... Until you can spend a couple nights in the trailer w/out swimming in condensation. That's your minimum ventilation point and then you decide whether you're warm enough that way with sweaters and good blankets or whether you need heat.



If you have a stove, you can use that for heat. It's not much, but it might work for you. Heat mass on the burners. Like bricks, maybe pizza platters (stone). Something to capture some heat and retain it. Now and from here on you have to be paying attention to the CO detector.


The next step might be some form of very small "catalytic" heater. Again, pay close attention to that CO detector.


IOW: You need to test and find _your_ solution. Ventilation is your one huge critical variable. Controlling it when you want to also keep heat inside is initially a major PITA requiring much figuring out. I'm happy with inside temps in the low 50's if I'm not sitting absolutely still. If I'm reading, low 60's is about right. At night, 40 is fine. YMMV.


Cheers,
Rufus

[John in Santa Cruz]

tl;dr. my version; DO NOT USE PORTABLE FLAME HEATING DEVICES INSIDE.

built in trailer furnaces are fine, they are vented, the exhaust gases go outside, but do be sure your CO detector is operational. thats not the same as your propane detector.

portable electric heat is fine, too. i have a small fan heater we'll use when we have power.

[rlaggren]

John is passing on most all official advice. No question about it, CO can kill you. That's why I filled a page with CO detector advice. But there are degrees and degrees. Everybody makes their own decisions. Google "rv OR indoor catalytic heater forums".



Here's one example with additional ideas:
https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f...ter-11455.html


Also. Wind can have a _big_ affect on ventilation and flue behavior. Ideally one should try to learn how their own trailer is affected this way. I think I mentioned that simply parking at a different angle or seeking "wind shadow" can greatly improve, normalize, ventilation and heating.



And note: Just having an "installed" heater does not mean you have eliminated CO concerns. Any flame appliance has to be installed properly and critical seams and connections need to be sound. This is _never_ a given until you verify it, completely and fully, yourself. In my experience, 65-70% of appliance installs are relatively safe; meaning they may or may not be completely correct according to the "book", but the critical parts are done safely. That leaves a fairly large population where, no, things look doubtful at the very least. I worked as a plumber for 30 years and routinely came across water heater and furnace and occasionally stove, even dryer, installations that I felt I needed to warn the owner about. Often the problem is not the initial install, but improvements added later, especially kitchen and house fans which can reverse the flow of combustion products in a flue. But often it was gaping seams, rusted-through burner boxes... on and on.


And any flame appliance needs to be understood fully and used sensibly (although opinions on the latter can vary...).


Rufus

[Artist Chic]

I love my 12 volt heated throw. It doesn't draw much and keeps me toasty. I will warm up the bed before I get in. You may want a second one under your bottom sheet.

I would lay a thick piece of carpet in the walkway, too.

There are small ceramic heaters that run off 12 volt. This is a must IMHO.

And, if cold...head farther south!

Good luck! Have fun!

[Artist Chic]

Originally Posted by RV1

Hi All,

Just a few questions for those who had done these before.

I am planning to take my 16' Casita towing it behind my F150 4x4 to Sedona, Grand Canyon, through Zion and Monument Valley. Since my truck is 4x4, will there be any issue with..

1. Winter weather, like snow, sleet, etc?
2. Will the 2 full tanks be enough for winter use like minor cooking and heating?
3. Places to park/camp the RVs in the winter? Will there be an issue with the dump station?
4. Other unexpected from your experience?

Any good places to visit in the winter while towing a Casita?

Thank you.

I would recommend the KOA campground in Monument Valley. It has spacious sites, isn't very large, and has wonderful facilities. The manager is very nice.

You can boondock very easily near Monument Valley, too. I think it would be easier in your Casita than we in our Class A 34'.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Artist Chic

I love my 12 volt heated throw. It doesn't draw much and keeps me toasty. I will warm up the bed before I get in. You may want a second one under your bottom sheet.

I would lay a thick piece of carpet in the walkway, too.

There are small ceramic heaters that run off 12 volt. This is a must IMHO.

these small 12V ceramic heaters, how many watts or amps are they? my small 120V one is 600 watts on low, that would be 50 amps at 12V, and would flatten a big battery in a couple hours.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by RV1

Hi All,

Just a few questions for those who had done these before.

I am planning to take my 16' Casita towing it behind my F150 4x4 to Sedona, Grand Canyon, through Zion and Monument Valley. Since my truck is 4x4, will there be any issue with..

1. Winter weather, like snow, sleet, etc?
2. Will the 2 full tanks be enough for winter use like minor cooking and heating?
3. Places to park/camp the RVs in the winter? Will there be an issue with the dump station?
4. Other unexpected from your experience?

Any good places to visit in the winter while towing a Casita?

Thank you.

a Casita 16, or at least our Casita 16, has rather small water and grey holding tanks. I could stretch 4-5 nights summer solo dry camping in it by taking minimal sponge baths and not doing much washing-of-dishes-and-pans. my wife could fill the grey tank with one shower.

everything else is fine, as long as you have some solar to recharge the single ~80AH (40AH usable) group 27 battery. two 20 lb propane tanks will last months, the black tank is adequate for 2 people using the toilet exclusively for maybe a week.

anything north of the grand canyon is going to be closed mid winter, frozen solid, and no place for a Casita, which has minimal insulation, and exposed water tanks, the north rim of the GC maybe opens by Easter on an average year, later on a heavy year which at least here on the left coasts this is turning into.

a stock Casita 16 without a lift kit will be pretty sketchy on any but a wide well graded dirt road. even with a lift kit, bigger wheels, and the now-hard-to-acquire shock kit, the trailer is going to get very beaten up on a dirt road that has washboard or any such. I hope for your sake, your F150 not only has 4x4 but has proper all/terrain tires with good tread, as highway tires on wet muddy or snowy roads are just going to spin.

[rlaggren]

What John said. ++


Heated throw. ++ for concept. But needs to be very low draw if you're on battery. Less than 50 watts; 50 watts = 50amps down after 10 hours. But with good bedding and mattress, it doesn't need much help to stay warm in bed. 20 watts would prolly do fine if you can find one or "adjust" one to that power level... Maybe hook up two in series to cut the power drain.



Electric space heaters... Seems like that would be a big load for a battery.



I am considering a 2nd battery for my EEE-14. The constraints are weight and space. LIPO helps with weight. And it helps with capacity because you can drain a LIPO down to about 5% w/out hurting it. But you still need to be able to recharge it in the time you have before the next drain. And LIPO can be totally destroyed by the wrong charger, or the wrong settings on a "right" charger, so users need to educate themselves thoroughly. And, of course, they cost 2-4 times as much.



If there is bright sun and you can open up the curtains and get that into the rv through windows, that heats things up noticeably.



And then there is a generator... I think you can buy excellent quiet gas generators now. And _maybe_ you can get propane conversion kits. Most commercial generators produce 120AC, so charging would also require a good charger that had settings for the type of battery(s) you have - and was happy with the power the generator produced. But if you have LIPO batteries, you want a damn good charger in any case. The quality of the generator output can vary significantly across brands and models. I think the little Hondas which are king of the buzz for the last 10 years probably will make most chargers happy - but you gotta check carefully.




Rufus

[rlaggren]

A bit more on one of John's points: Beating up the trailer.


Take note and be aware - very aware, to paraphrase somebody.


I put 10k miles on my trailer last fall and I can say without question, anything you can do to make it stronger and secure stuff reliably and absolutely... You really want to do that. Really, Really.


- battery(s)
- tanks (all)
- wiring (to avoid chafe)
- door (have _two_ secure locking latches; flipping a door
open or even losing it is a real bummer)

- screen door (if so equipped)
- windows latched tight and securely
- vent that does _not_ work open (and remember to close it)

- cupboard doors
- drawers
- mirror(s) (!)
- reefer door (!)

- stove top (!)
- cupboard contents (I use pillows to stuff them)
- crockery (again, pillows)
- pots/pans (they go on the bed under my heavy blankets)
- anything attached to a wall (like a thermometer, clothes
hook, knife wrack, utensil mug, reading light, anything on
shelves or in net pockets)


A 5gal bucket on the floor or on an easily accessible berth or seat, strapped in tight, serves me as a catch-all for stuff that just arrived or hasn't made it back to its place yet.



You'll find out what matters fairly quickly. Hope it doesn't cost too much. <g>




Rufus