USFS campground fee rules variations

[peterh]

Just a thought. I tow my Bigfoot 21' and carry a Honda Trail 90 motorcycle in a rack on the front of my truck. Would I have been charged for three vehicle?

Texas Charles

Absolutely. And if you left your rollerskates outside that'd be another two vehicles to pay for.

[Brian B-P]

Okay, here's the "site detail" from a favorite Corps of Engineers park:
Site Details...
[b] * Max. # of Vehicle:2
* Max. Vehicle Length:55

Since no one is likely to allow a 55-foot trailer or motorhome, a specification allowing a 55-ft vehicle presumably means to include a combined tug and trailer as a single "vehicle".

Even if a spec says "vehicle" and omits "motor", the trailer could be considered to be part of a combined articulated motor vehicle, as long as they stay hooked up.

If people running businesses want to play games with wording, ignoring the obvious intent of the rules, they should expect their customers to play the same game.

[Mary F]

I think that maximum vehicle length is just the length of the driveway at that particular campsite. (The maximums vary.)

But, yeah, it's a bit imprecise to word it that way.

[Byron Kinnaman]

I got curious and sent an email off to ask about definition of an extra vehicle. Here's the response.

Byron,

I brought this up, and apparently there is some national level discussion
on your topic. I am looking into it on the San Bernardino to see if we
are counting travel trailers as a combo vehicle or extra.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Miller
Public Affairs
US Forest Service / San Bernardino National Forest
909-382-2788

[Gina D.]

It will be interesting to see what he comes back with.

[Palmer M]

Gina, neither the hosts nor their ranger you're dealing with understand the spirit of the rule.

When I first took out insurance on the micronaut, I was surprised it was inexpensive.
My insurer explained that once it was hitched to the truck, they were considered one vehicle, so it was just a rider
on the truck policy because the "one" combined vehicle had greater value than the truck alone.

It is very specious to consider the travel trailer a separate vehicle once it is unhitched.
When unhitched, it has about the same "vehicle" characteristics as a tent, that is to say, none.
(Unless you forgot to chock your wheels! )

If I were faced with mindless bureaucrats insisting on extra payment, I would have argued until
blue in the face against their logic, no matter how petty the extra charge.

Using logic, you could have asked them, "How many vehicles did I arrive in?". Answer: One.
If you arrived in one vehicle, how could separating the two halves of the one vehicle possibly result in two vehicles?!

How could you have two vehicles present, when you arrived in one vehicle, have not departed and come back, and no one has joined you?
Separating the ONE articulated vehicle does not in any logic make it TWO vehicles, especially if one half is immovable under its own power.
Leaving your trailer behind for the day is, for occupation purposes, exactly the same as leaving a tent set up.

If I were up against this, I would leave the trailer, and on the second night, park the truck outside the park and WALK in. When they come for the fees,
point out that you only have HALF a vehicle and demand half off your already half-off discount! That'd show 'em!

The idiots you were dealing with may have been nice and hospitable, but they were still idiots.
Nowhere I have been would anybody interpret "2 vehicles" to be anything but two motorcars.

P

On Edit: Obviously the SPIRIT of this rule is to prevent congregations of group campers and/or "party-ers" from overrunning the family campgrounds.

[Palmer M]

When you are hitched up, you have one vehicle on a campsite.

When you are unhitched, you have one vehicle and one occupied campsite.

I think that is the intended interpretation of the rule.

P

[David and Nancy]

I'm a retired ranger (NPS) myself and sincerely believe that the hosts at Gina's campground are very wrong. However, I don't think the solution is to label the volunteer campground hosts as "peons with power", "jerks", "mindless bureaucrats", or "idiots". There is a chain of command at the US Forest Service. You can send letters up the line and you WILL get a response. The hosts answer to a Recreation Planner, and District Ranger at the local District office. The District Ranger answers to a Forest Supervisor, who answers to a Regional Director who answers to a Director in Washington DC who answers to the Secretary of Agriculture. You get the idea. Believe it or not, squeaky wheels will get greased if heard by the right bureaucrat.

So happy to be retired,
Dave

[Gina D.]

Thanks David. I agree.

As mentioned, the hosts themselves question this policy, however, they did state that their superior is the one that insist this the correct policy, and they are bound by it.

It's like yelling at the clerk at the gas station because the prices are too high.

Since the higher ground campgrounds are set to open for the summer in a couple weeks, I probably will not return there until fall, but I will get copies of the other San Bernardino Forest Parks rules and point them out to them (And their ranger, who a Sargent, not the general) and question it again.

[Gina D.]

Next weekend is the official kick off of the camping season up here in the old mountains. Normally, my first, last, and majorly inbetweens for the summer would be at Heartbar, but I noted that in the campground closest to me, the Forest Services latest spiff up and shine one, Dogwood, that one of the nicest sites on the mountain was available, so I nabbed it quick off the recreation.gov site. (It sits at least 300 feet from any other site, is off by itself on a cliff overlooking the entire valley from up here on the rim, and it has electric hook ups!)

Anyway, HERE is the details of my PAID reservation.


Reservation Details
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Site Details

* Reservation #: 1-6115402
* Arrival Date: Fri May 04 2007
* Check-in: 2:00 pm
* State: CALIFORNIA
* Loop/Site: DOGWOOD SINGLES / 021
Site Details



* Reservation Type: Overnight
* Departure Date: Sun May 06 2007
* Check-out: 2:00 pm
* Facility: Dogwood
Facility Details

* Site Type: FAM STA SGL ELEC

Reservation Details

* # of Occupants: 1 (min: 1, max: 8)
* Primary Equipment: Trailer
* Length: 17 feet



* # of Vehicles: 1 (max: 1)

Payment Details

* Camping Fee: $31.00
* Total: $31.00



* Total Payment: $31.00
* Balance : $0.00

* The billing company that will appear on your credit card will be Recreation Gov 888-4481474 NY

I am not charged for 2 vehicles, as the max allowed in this site is 1. In wading thru reams of government techno babble of definitions from the San Bernardino NF website , in a nutshell, a travel trailer is considered camping equipment, and a "vehicle" has two definitions, split into MOTOR vehicle, self propelled, and a "vehicle", other than a camping trailer.

Also on one screen, which I did not capture, it says this site has a limit of "One Vehicle and one TOWED vehicle".

Since the cell signal at Applewhite is 5 bars+, I have every intention of sharing this with them, on screen, direct from thier own regulating agencies site.

I am curious what they will say.

[Mike-B]

...Mike-B

[BOBSMITH]

A trailer is not a vehicle.

[Gerry]

I have a friend comeing down from Canada and they are under the impression that they will be able to boon-dock about anywhere in Maine or NH. I think they will get a surprise to find out this is not allowed down here in the states but with the price of campgrounds going through the roof Walmart parking lots are looking better and better.
Gerry the canoebuilder