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09-22-2015, 05:57 PM
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#81
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Moderator
Name: RogerDat
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 16
Michigan
Posts: 3,744
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According to a friend Consumers Reports has a pretty good breakdown of what is going on. Did provide a how did they pass when being tested but not on the road.
The ECM (electronic control module) shifted program parameters if the front wheels where turning but the rear wheels were not. EPA and many test facilities put the car on a two wheel dynamometer so just the powered front wheels are turning during a test.
Essentially a variation of how an ECM can go into limp home mode in response to certain conditions. In the alternative mode the car is run with a hard coded set of parameters simply designed to make the car run, rather than a dynamic set of parameters that changes in response to speed, acceleration, load etc. in an attempt to optimize performance.
Pretty much anytime you drive a car with the check engine light on the computer is going to shift into an alternate mode, VW just used the wheel rotation sensors to run one that would pass the EPA tests.
I'm guessing but if the engineers were to focus on making the standard program perform as well as it could while staying under emissions limits I bet they could actually deliver decent performance. With the "fix" in place they just didn't have to so they went straight at performance.
Might be little lost performance wise with a new ECM program that passes emissions tests. Could be an opportunity, gamble on the vehicle being ok long term and pick one up cheap since owners may drop the price with the uncertainty. Or VW might come back with some good deals to entice buyers as soon as this gets addressed. VW makes some good cars I think they will be ok long term and with the stock down 30% might be a deal to be had there.
Like they say shooting pool. No guts, no glory.
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09-22-2015, 06:01 PM
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#82
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Senior Member
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
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OK assume that VW fooled the EPA test. How do they fool the yearly test?
__________________
Norm and Ginny
2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
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09-22-2015, 06:28 PM
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#83
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Moderator
Name: RogerDat
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 16
Michigan
Posts: 3,744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda03842
OK assume that VW fooled the EPA test. How do they fool the yearly test?
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Have no idea, we don't have those here and have not had a chance to read further.
I thought the test places put the drive wheels on dynamometer to test. Including the state mandated annual one.
I could also see where the testing equipment being plugged into the car might be used to trip a change in routine when the communication link was being negotiated between the two computers.
Sort of a "oh your one of those things" run shift mode program. Considering that clearing is as simple as knowing which pins to jump.... might be pretty easy to tell what is plugged in simply by what pins it uses.
I also don't know if they even test for this particular exhaust gas in state tests.
VW has issued one of the bluntest and straight up admissions of guilt today. That is rare, but it was yep we screwed up, you got a raw deal, we are here to take our lumps, we earned them. If nothing else someone's parents raised someone to stand up and admit their mistakes. How they did it is an interesting question, but that they did it is not in doubt since the president of the company and the board said they did.
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09-22-2015, 06:35 PM
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#84
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Senior Member
Trailer: Escape 17 ft
Posts: 8,317
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Phil Edmonston, author of Lemon-Aid car guides, suggests this isn't over yet, what with executive cross-pollination in the industry. He said some may have rejected the 'fix', but other auto companies are likely to have found the solution convenient.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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09-22-2015, 07:24 PM
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#85
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Senior Member
Name: bob
Trailer: 1996 Casita 17 Spirit Deluxe; 1946 Modernistic teardrop
New York
Posts: 5,413
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My opinion, which has no value at all, is that the auto and truck companies are having extreme difficulty in developing the technology required to meet emissions regulations and still maintain desirable performance from their engines. Probably easier to come up with a way to fudge the tests. I heard a few years ago that Caterpillar was no longer building truck engines because they couldn't meet the emission requirements, and now International is going to discontinue engine production too.
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09-22-2015, 07:41 PM
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#86
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller
There's an interesting chart in this link that translates commercial aircraft fuel consumption to passenger seat MPG. For the most part it looks like, unless you can carry more than 4 passengers, that the airlines win on fuel economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft
And yes, they use more fuel on take off, but they are on much lower consumption levels during the 30 minute descent/approach before landing.
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Your 1200 mile example is at the very edge of where Air Travel starts to be competitive with car travel. Actually even in time consumed, when you consider transportation to the airport, check-in, TSA, landing, retrieving luggage and getting a taxi or rental car then driving to your destination. That is not to mention that seating on modern aircraft coach is like sitting in the back seat of a Yaris sedan with two Sumo wrestlers (carrying companion animals) fresh from a bout, in fight gear without having had a shower! What's worse is that they have recently reduced seat size again...to less than the smallest bucket seat in a compact car and without the door or the console to "console" you. Don't forget the recline feature of the seat in front of you!
This is, of course, a site dedicated to fiberglass travel trailers, so most of the readers here would want to take more along than a tooth brush , couple of pairs of underwear, socks, and a clean shirt... At least a nail file and a full bottle of shampoo!
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09-22-2015, 09:02 PM
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#87
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Can't say I see those situations very often. As a frequent flier I did, but I was on the payroll. As a casual flier I pick and chose flights. I use Ontario. I can be from drop off to boarding lounge in about 10 minutes, 15 on a slow day. Cut that in half at Wenatchee.
I make that 1250 mile trip in less than 6 hours door to door. Driving I would be in Bakersfield (Yuk)
Sorry, no nail files or full bottles of shampoo allowed in carry-on
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09-22-2015, 09:37 PM
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#88
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller
Can't say I see those situations very often. As a frequent flier I did, but I was on the payroll. As a casual flier I pick and chose flights. I use Ontario. I can be from drop off to boarding lounge in about 10 minutes, 15 on a slow day. Cut that in half at Wenatchee.
I make that 1250 mile trip in less than 6 hours door to door. Driving I would be in Bakersfield (Yuk)
Sorry, no nail files or full bottles of shampoo allowed in carry-on
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We had a family gathering in Denver CO. My brother left his home in Lafayette La ( one thousand one hundred miles) I left my house in Il.(one thousand miles) at the same exact time. He arrived at the motel one half hour after I did.
He flew, I drove.
But then... my 1995 Mustang met NOx standards after Ford Motor Company survived the EPA fraud allegations of 1971 / 1972.
VW will be around long after this fiasco.
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09-23-2015, 01:43 AM
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#89
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Senior Member
Name: Lee
Trailer: Casita
Texas
Posts: 493
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Mary and Bob I think you hit the nail on the head.
__________________
Lee
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09-23-2015, 06:37 AM
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#90
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd
We had a family gathering in Denver CO. My brother left his home in Lafayette La ( one thousand one hundred miles) I left my house in Il.(one thousand miles) at the same exact time. He arrived at the motel one half hour after I did.
He flew, I drove.
But then... my 1995 Mustang met NOx standards after Ford Motor Company survived the EPA fraud allegations of 1971 / 1972.
VW will be around long after this fiasco.
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Volkswagen AG will have no trouble surviving, but Volkswagen of America may not be as lucky.
And yes, I can take two days on my 1200 miles flights if I want to have two changes of plane or with an overnight at one of them. That route varies between 4:20 and 14:26 flight times and between about $123 and $696, same plane and flights, ONT>>EAT. Not every one has the advantages of good connections. It's one of the complications of living in the Golden State, so many options, so little time....LOL
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09-28-2015, 06:22 AM
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#91
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Looks like VW AG is adding 2 million Audi diesel vehicles to the count.
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09-28-2015, 06:29 AM
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#92
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Senior Member
Name: Lee
Trailer: Casita
Texas
Posts: 493
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Time to stop gloating Bob
__________________
Lee
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09-28-2015, 06:56 AM
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#93
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Senior Member
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
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It looks like all 2.0 liter common rail Diesel engines since 2008 are noncompliant. It will add up to over 11 million cars and trucks.
It does not seem to apply to the earlier 1.9 liter fours or the 6 and 10 cylinder cars.
This will be interesting especially since I have two of them. Great cars, evidently made by criminals.
It would seem that the scheme is unraveling quickly and we will learn about it in time.
Now VW will spend way more than they would have spent in development to recover from this debacle. That is if they recover at all.
The question is if one cheated then what about the others?
VW has sold this engine to other manufacturers who needed small Diesels like Fiat etc.
The liability is tremendous and criminal charges are likely. It is about time that criminal acts by corporations are prosecuted to the extent of the law.
This would apply to the everyday financial crooks as well.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Fiberglass RV mobile app
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09-28-2015, 07:22 AM
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#94
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Sorry Lee, those of us in the Golden State, having already experienced Beijing style air quality some 50 years ago, have a very keen interest in air quality and have little truck with those that have no qualms about intentionally dumping pollutants into ours, our children's, and grandchildren's lungs.....
At least in theory, the federal government could order all of those vehicles off the road until corrected.
Years ago, VW also tried, (and got caught), automatically disabling the emissions systems on some air-cooled VW's using a temperature sensing system.
Apparently VW AG now sees themselves as the unsinkable Titanic of the auto industry, and we all know how that turned out.
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09-28-2015, 07:24 AM
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#95
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Senior Member
Name: Steve
Trailer: 2018, 21ft escape— 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie
NW Wisconsin
Posts: 4,500
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Does anyone really believe that Germany would allow VW to be put out of business by a ruling made in a foreign country. VW of America will just file for bankruptcy in the US .
VW AG will just go on making vehicles and drop out of the US market. In other words cut rheir losses and run. It's been done before
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09-28-2015, 07:25 AM
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#96
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Senior Member
Name: Charlie
Trailer: 2014 Lil Snoozy
North Carolina
Posts: 788
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VW Diesel Cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo
There are a number of idiots that pride themselves on blowing black smoke. You can find decals on their rear windows that say "Coal Burner" or some such ( that's if you can see it through the smoke ). Has nothing to do with more power. The idea is to make as much pollution as possible to show that you don't conform and don't believe in global warming.
They modify their vehicles to blow huge clouds.
I haven't watched this, but here's a link: http://www.vocativ.com/culture/socie...e-rollin-coal/
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So how are these guys worse than a huge multinational company that evades the law not on one vehicle but thousands? Is it because some of us own some of the vehicles in question? Just wondering...
Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
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09-28-2015, 07:59 AM
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#97
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1996 Casita Freedom Deluxe 17 ft
Posts: 454
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Not to to excuse VW (because they deserve whatever they get) it appears that cheating on diesel emissions has been pretty widespread in Europe:
Watchdog Group Says Other Car Companies Are Cheating On Emissions All The Time
The fact that diesel automobiles have never really caught on in the US makes us somewhat lucky. I suspect there will be a lot more hybrids and electric cars in our future.
And I agree with some other posters, it's time to clamp down on the jerks in the big diesel trucks.
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09-28-2015, 08:18 AM
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#98
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Senior Member
Name: Dale
Trailer: 2010 EggCamper; 2002 Highlander 3.0L; 2017 Escape 21'; 2016 F-150 5.0L Fx4
Colorado
Posts: 746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve dunham
Does anyone really believe that Germany would allow VW to be put out of business by a ruling made in a foreign country. VW of America will just file for bankruptcy in the US .
VW AG will just go on making vehicles and drop out of the US market. In other words cut rheir losses and run. It's been done before
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NPR just ran a story on it. Seems that German consumers are as mad about the VW scandal as anyone for the "stain" it has put on their country's reputation as a world leader in automotive technology, and they have backed off on purchasing VW vehicles, too. The story seemed to imply that German government officials had an idea of what might be going on at VW several years back and warned them not to cheat. VW's response appears to be that they had to do something in order to comply with US pollution standards (read that as California's strict standards for their huge car market) and still be competitive against hybrid technology. I didn't catch all of the details, and apologize for any misrepresentation, but part of the story made it sound like the German government initially turned a blind eye - hoping that VW would clean up their act on their own (or at least not get caught). I guess we all know how that turned out. The piece is probably posted on the NPR website if anyone wants to listen closely to the full story and form their own understanding of the segment....
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09-28-2015, 08:33 AM
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#99
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Senior Member
Trailer: LittleGuy Classic Teardrop ('Baby Osmo') (Previously 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe)
Posts: 234
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...
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09-28-2015, 09:43 AM
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#100
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Eagle
NPR just ran a story on it. Seems that German consumers are as mad about the VW scandal as anyone for the "stain" it has put on their country's reputation as a world leader in automotive technology, and they have backed off on purchasing VW vehicles, too. The story seemed to imply that German government officials had an idea of what might be going on at VW several years back and warned them not to cheat. VW's response appears to be that they had to do something in order to comply with US pollution standards (read that as California's strict standards for their huge car market) and still be competitive against hybrid technology. I didn't catch all of the details, and apologize for any misrepresentation, but part of the story made it sound like the German government initially turned a blind eye - hoping that VW would clean up their act on their own (or at least not get caught). I guess we all know how that turned out. The piece is probably posted on the NPR website if anyone wants to listen closely to the full story and form their own understanding of the segment....
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I don't have numbers for US sales of VW diesels, but the problem now involves 13 million diesel engines in VW's and Audi's world wide market. Hardly the miniscule US market, much less the even smaller California market.
There are emissions standards in almost all of VW's markets and this seems to be spread through out all of them.
California Emissions standards are seen as the gold standard for the world and most manufacturers accept them as a part of being in business in the United States.
German industry has a well earned reputation for doing things right and, as mentioned, finding an intentional chink in that armor will not endear any German citizens to VW.
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