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09-18-2015, 01:35 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,912
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VW Diesel Cheating
Ouch!
This looks like a huge black eye for the largest manufacturer of affordable small diesels for the North American market. The EPA is accusing VW of programming the engine to run clean when being tested but 40 times dirtier (NOx) when running on the highway. Performance may be reduced when running in the "clean" mode, which will presumably be all the time after the recall is done. Now the game will be forcing 482K owners to get their engines reprogrammed… when there's little incentive to do so.
The engine in question is the 2.0L TDI popular with some for towing small eggs.
Hmmm…
EPA: 482K VW diesel vehicles violated emissions rules
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/volkswag...357726737.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/bu...ware.html?_r=0
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09-18-2015, 03:13 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2002 19 ft Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 3,640
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Car manufacturers have all manipulated the MPG figures for as long as I can remember.
Should you want to change the software programming on your vehicle, there are companies where you can purchase the device to do so.
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09-18-2015, 08:11 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,912
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I hope I'm not misunderstanding your point, Darwin, but it seems to me this isn't about fudging MPG numbers. It's about fraudulently evading federal emissions standards. Mileage may have been a motivation, though that is not clear from the sources.
As an aside, I haven't personally experienced the MPG manipulation you refer to. Not saying it doesn't happen (Hyundai and Ford C-Max come to mind), but the last seven vehicles we have owned, from three different manufacturers, have all met or exceeded EPA mileage estimates in long-term use.
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09-18-2015, 09:10 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Name: alan
Trailer: looking
Colorado
Posts: 264
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I haven't yet heard what VW has to say but it sure smells like fraud so far.
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09-18-2015, 09:13 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Name: Dean
Trailer: Casita
Kentucky
Posts: 766
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Hi Jon,
I heard this story today on NPR. Yes, between recalls and fines, VW will pay dearly for their deception. I am a TDI fan, but this looks like another case of corporate greed to me.
Interesting,
Dean
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09-19-2015, 03:58 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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It seems just about every vehicle I look at has a diesel engine that can not be used in the US. Different standards implies competing experts. I doubt the folks in Europe want dirty air anymore than we do. And while diesel engines in cars are rare here, if you go to a place that sells tractors, once you get above lawn mowers, they are all diesels. Apparently different standards apply. . Raz
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09-19-2015, 07:21 AM
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#7
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Senior Member
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
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Since I have a 2009 and a 2013 2.0 L. TDI that this will apply to I am very interested in the outcome!
These are great cars, but can have expensive problems and now the obvious corporate cheating and violations of the law endangering the general population with air pollution.
I wonder the extent of the required recall and the overall effect on the performance, mileage and reliability.
At a maximum fine of $37,000 per car totaling almost 18 Billion dollars it is also a major hit to the bottom line of VW.
Of course this may be the work of a limited group within the company, but the responsibility still rests with the company.
Clean Diesel seems to be a little bit off the mark now!
Still the little Diesel does a great job as delivered (except for that being illegal thing).
I wonder what the impact to the owners will be? I bought the cars based on performance and fuel mileage. If it is appreciably degraded I will be dissappointed to say the least!
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09-19-2015, 08:36 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1996 Casita Freedom Deluxe 17 ft
Posts: 454
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My state of Colorado has emission testing in the Denver area. There are testing centers around. However, the folks doing the testing have come up with a clever method that involves vans posted beside the road that can read your license plate and check what comes out of your tailpipe while you drive by. If you get three good readings in a certain period of time, then you're exempted from having to take your car to the testing center. I would be curious to know how the VW vehicles are getting around this.
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09-19-2015, 08:46 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2002 19 ft Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 3,640
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Jon in AZ, Boy did ever miss the point on that. I had a brain fart for sure. Thanks for the correction.
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09-19-2015, 09:03 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry G
My state of Colorado has emission testing in the Denver area. There are testing centers around. However, the folks doing the testing have come up with a clever method that involves vans posted beside the road that can read your license plate and check what comes out of your tailpipe while you drive by. If you get three good readings in a certain period of time, then you're exempted from having to take your car to the testing center. I would be curious to know how the VW vehicles are getting around this.
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California has had "Smog Cams" for years, but the purpose is just the opposite. If you are spotted spewing excessive emissions you get a notice from the state to get an emissions inspection within30 days or your registration will be cancelled.
The last report I saw on that program a few years back was that about 75% of the cars spotted were taken off the road.
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09-19-2015, 09:08 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbarron55
Since I have a 2009 and a 2013 2.0 L. TDI that this will apply to I am very interested in the outcome!
These are great cars, but can have expensive problems and now the obvious corporate cheating and violations of the law endangering the general population with air pollution.
I wonder the extent of the required recall and the overall effect on the performance, mileage and reliability.
At a maximum fine of $37,000 per car totaling almost 18 Billion dollars it is also a major hit to the bottom line of VW.
Of course this may be the work of a limited group within the company, but the responsibility still rests with the company.
Clean Diesel seems to be a little bit off the mark now!
Still the little Diesel does a great job as delivered (except for that being illegal thing).
I wonder what the impact to the owners will be? I bought the cars based on performance and fuel mileage. If it is appreciably degraded I will be dissappointed to say the least!
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Somehow I doubt very seriously they will get the maximum fine. I think the feds will weigh setting a strong example against crippling a large corporation with a major economic presence in the US. Hyundai was fined $100M for fudging MPG numbers. GM was fined $900M for the ignition switch cover-up. This case seems more egregious than the former, but less so than the latter.
The Justice Department has been making noises about more criminal prosecutions in corporate fraud cases. The financial industry was primarily indicated, but I wonder if they will make an example here. I think criminal prosecution might have more impact on corporate behavior than fines, which are paid using someone else's money.
I'm with you, JD, in wondering how mileage and performance will be affected by the fix, and whether a urea injection system will ultimately be required.
It is disappointing. I want to like VW, but between reliability and now this…
But then, our last three vehicle purchases were a 2000 Toyota Sienna 3.0L that was the subject of a class action lawsuit over premature engine failure, a 2006 Honda CR-V that was caught in the Takata recall and cover-up, and a 2011 Honda Pilot 3.5L that is the subject of another class action lawsuit over the cylinder-cutoff system. You're 0 for 2. I'm 0 for 3! And in fairness, all three have given reliable service, though at 70K the jury is still out on the Pilot.
Maybe we just expect too much!
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09-19-2015, 09:28 AM
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#12
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Junior Member
Name: Tom
Trailer: Researching
Florida
Posts: 2
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I'd hold out judgement until I heard more about the actual facts. I wouldn't be surprised if VW has a test mode because the EPA regulations (and test methods) may demand it. There's no way to test all cars for all conditions (temp, altitude, humidity, load, fuel, etc.) so I suspect they have standard test sets to make setup and data collection more efficient and reliable. One team of engineers with their agenda puts out their rules and the next team of engineers is challenged to optimize their machine to meet them plus the demands of the marketplace. Sorry, but I don't trust the editors at the NYT to wait until someone digs into the technical details (especially if it could get in the way of a splashy, exaggerated headline). More facts will come out I hope and we'll see.
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09-19-2015, 09:33 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
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This is nasty. Shame on VW for trying to cheat.
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09-19-2015, 09:41 AM
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#14
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Senior Member
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon in AZ
It is disappointing. I want to like VW, but between reliability and now this…
But then, our last three vehicle purchases were a 2000 Toyota Sienna 3.0L that was the subject of a class action lawsuit over premature engine failure, a 2006 Honda CR-V that was caught in the Takata recall and cover-up, and a 2011 Honda Pilot 3.5L that is the subject of another class action lawsuit over the cylinder-cutoff system. You're 0 for 2. I'm 0 for 3! (In fairness, all three have given reliable service, though at 70K the jury is still out on the Pilot.)
Maybe we just expect too much!
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Takata Recall.
Sometimes there's a general design failure that does not become obvious in the short term. 12 companies used the Takata airbag component over 19,000,000 vehicles were involved.
Our CRV was also part of the recall.
__________________
Norm and Ginny
2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
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09-19-2015, 09:59 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1996 Casita Freedom Deluxe 17 ft
Posts: 454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon in AZ
Somehow I doubt very seriously they will get the maximum fine. I think they will weigh setting a strong example against crippling a large corporation with a major economic presence in the US. Hyundai was fined $100M for fudging MPG numbers. GM was fined $900M for the ignition switch cover-up. This case seems more egregious than the former, but less than the latter.
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The fine by the feds could be rather insignificant compared to settling the class action suits that are going to happen when the lawyers get involved. VW has been losing market share in the US for quite some time and this isn't going to help. And by the way, VW closed its manufacturing plant in the US and moved everything to Puebla in Mexico years ago.
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09-19-2015, 10:16 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Trailer: Escape 17 ft
Posts: 8,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatortomk
Sorry, but I don't trust the editors at the NYT to wait until someone digs into the technical details (especially if it could get in the way of a splashy, exaggerated headline). More facts will come out I hope and we'll see.
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If you don't trust New York Times to report an EPA release, who do you trust?
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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09-19-2015, 10:22 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda03842
Takata Recall.
Sometimes there's a general design failure that does not become obvious in the short term. 12 companies used the Takata airbag component over 19,000,000 vehicles were involved...
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That was really the point of my parting shot in the post you cited. We have incredibly high expectations of vehicles: crash-worthiness in every conceivable scenario, accident avoidance technology that eliminates driver error, sports car performance, near-zero tailpipe emissions, very high fuel mileage, reliable for 200K+ miles with little more than oil changes, affordable cost,... And the ability to drag a fiberglass egg over the Rockies!
Engineers do their best to give as much as possible of everything we want, sometimes trying new approaches and sometimes making compromises between cost and performance. And sometimes the long-term unintended consequences of those decisions don't become apparent for years. And when they do begin to show up, it is natural to initially blame driver error or poor maintenance.
When it becomes fraudulent is a grey area.
In VW's case, though, if the accusations prove to be well-founded (thank you for the reminder, Gatortomk), it seems there may have been intentional deception from the beginning. I wonder if a design requirement to meet US emissions standards for diesels through engine management, without the cost and complexity of urea injection, backed VW engineers into a corner and they took the low road out.
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09-19-2015, 10:35 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo
If you don't trust New York Times to report an EPA release, who do you trust?
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So Glenn, you tell me, and I'll see what they're saying. I personally favor the Wall Street Journal, but I'm too cheap to purchase the e-subscription.
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09-19-2015, 10:55 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry G
...And by the way, VW closed its manufacturing plant in the US and moved everything to Puebla in Mexico years ago.
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I believe the VW Passat is assembled in Chattanooga, TN. The plant opened in 2011 to produce a North America-only version.
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09-19-2015, 11:13 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
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My bet is that it was not a corporate decision to install the defeat software in the engine controls, but rather one or more engineers in the engine control division who figured out how to fudge the testing to get the engine through the testing and then the coverup within the corporation etc.
All Diesels have been held at the port of entry this year and probably will be until this is fixed.
The defeat was discovered by students at the University of West Virginia while testing cars on the road vs. in test cells and they asked why the significant difference in the VW results. Funny thing what you might discover while just measuring things and thinking about the results!
This will be a big deal for the VW Diesel program and should make a big difference in how I think about them.
Personally I have found the Diesel to make a great engine and I have put 240,000 miles on my 2009 and since it gave good service and I thought it was time for a newer car for Connie (She Who Must Be Obeyed) we bought a low mileage 2013 Sportwagen.
While the Diesel fuel is more expensive it provides higher mileage and more torque.
The equivalent fuel cost for a gas car would be about a 30 mpg car. Most 30 mpg cars would not have the pulling power of the Diesel.
Oh well we will see what transpires!
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