What are your thoughts?

[honda03842]

One item we carry with us is a handheld propane leak detector. We've had one for 10 years and it works well. Any time I make a propane connection I check with this device and it's caught a few leaks over the years.

It costs about $30. In ten years we have not even replaced the battery. As well you can take it to your stove and turn on the gas and test that the device is working at any time.

For example, we just bought a 1991 Scamp 16 and went around checking the connections and the pressure regulator had a small leak.

As to fridge installations and air/exhaust flow, this is another reason for the installation of a fan in the rear of your fridge.

Portable LP Gas Leak Detector Finds Combustible Gases - PPL Motor Homes

Norm

[Mr. W.]

Originally Posted by honda03842

One item we carry with us is a handheld propane leak detector.
As to fridge installations and air/exhaust flow, this is another reason for the installation of a fan in the rear of your fridge.

Norm -- Although I do not have one, I absolutely agree with you about the leak detector.

I also agree about the fan. Based on my experience with my Scamp, I know how much better the fridge worked once I installed a fan. It is also an effective mitigation to the risk of a sub-spec installation, IF the fan is installed to pull air across the coils and OUT the exhaust, rather than just blow air across the coils. If it is installed in the intake vent and just blowing air onto the coils, it may actually incrementally increase the air pressure in the fridge cavity, with the result of forcing more exhaust into the living space. It is fair to point out, however, that it is a mitigation, not a solution (in other words, a work-around, not a fix). It also increases your dependence on electricity, and is a consideration if you are using propane as an off-grid solution.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by LiL Snoozy

I read an article in a boating magazine a few days ago that scared the heck out of me. The article was written about CO2 emissions leaking from the LP heater, causing a young girl to loose her life. I did some digging and found that several hundred deaths have been attributed to gas appliances in the last year. This is very troubling to me. I admit that I am one of the many that say "..this is something that only happens on the news, not to me." Thinking deeper, what if it DID happen to me? What if my niece was the little girl I read about? What if it where a customers child, grandchild or spouse? words cannot describe how horrible that would be. With that in mind I am wondering what the forum's opinion is. As a company, we are seriously considering removing our factory installed LP options.
With the efficiency and low price of electric appliances, is propane truly worth the danger and hassle?

Nicholas

Originally Posted by LiL Snoozy

Thank you everyone for your opinions. Some very good points have been brought up in the pros and cons to LP. We are going to keep evaluating the topic and see where it goes. By the way, I apologize for the typo, I was referring to Carbon Monoxide. (tying to type to fast.

Thanks again

Hi, Snoozy Nick

Maybe you missed the post where I asked, so I'll ask again:
Will you please post references for your assertions of fact regarding deaths/injuries caused by propane exhaust?
We're especially interested in any related to properly installed/maintained systems.
I've been unable to find any data/articles at all that support your claims.
You're a new manufacturer, and it's important to all of us that we can trust that you have a good basic understanding of the systems that are standard issue in most trailers.
It wouldn't do to leave people with an impression that you're of the opinion that other manufacturers aren't as conscientious as you are about their customers' safety- unless of course that is your opinion.
If so, I think it would be appropriate to invite those other trailer makers into this Owners' Forum to defend themselves.

Francesca

[jen b]

I don't get the impression that Nicholas is impugning other manufacturers at all, just trying to get some feedback on risks vs advantages of a trailer feature.

[Vickie B.]

Whoa---back the truck up! Nicholas started with an article that concerned him. HE did not bring up other manufacturers and their possible culpability.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by jen b

I don't get the impression that Nicholas is impugning other manufacturers at all, just trying to get some feedback on risks vs advantages of a trailer feature.

Hi, Jen

The propane system isn't a feature of the Snoozy- it's an "option". It's a standard feature in Escapes, Scamps, Casitas, and Trilliums. It seems to me that there's an implication here that their safety standards are lower than Snoozy Nick's.
I'm mostly interested in seeing the source for Nick's statistics, and they might be illuminating for other trailer makers, too.

Francesca

[cpaharley2008]

I agree, Nicholas was upset that a untimely death happened and how it would effect him if something similar happened to a relative or a customer.
Most trailer manufacturers today seem to assemble 3rd party products into one big usable rv product. I'm surprised that Scamp, in installing the 3rd party refer, ignored the proper installation. The manufacturer of the refrigerator can only sell their product with instructions. If the vendor or in this case, Scamp ignores those instructions, who is the blame?
If Lil Snoozy properly follows the manufacturer's installation instructions, then there should not be an issue, just my .02$ worth

[Mr. W.]

Originally Posted by LiL Snoozy

I read an article in a boating magazine a few days ago that scared the heck out of me. The article was written about CO2 emissions leaking from the LP heater, causing a young girl to loose her life. I did some digging and found that several hundred deaths have been attributed to gas appliances in the last year. Thi

Nicholas

Let's not read more into Nicholas' question than he asked or said. He did NOT say that he found several hundred deaths attributed to LP gas in RVs. Just attributed to gas appliances in general. Probably very, very realistic.

Second, he is not disparaging other manufacturers. He is currently offering an LP option, and is wondering if he should discontinue it, acknowledging that it will cost his company some business. He is trying to determine, in part, the impact of that on the viability of his company. He needs to reconcile his own peace of mind, his liability, and his cash flow.

Honestly, I am glad to see that he is willing to think for himself rather than just do what everybody else has already done, and that he sees his company as an extension of himself, and its reputation as his own.

As pointed out, he is a new manufacturer, and he is trying to make sure he does it right. Commendable. Nicholas, when I decide to make to move back up to a larger camper (mine is a teardrop), you will be right at the top of my list. I see much more "ownership" from Reece, Jim Palmer and Nicholas than I do from the more established companies.

[Francesca Knowles]

Let's be frank:
There's a difference of interest between owners and manufacturers:
We're owners! We want the most trailer for the dollar!
Nicholas is a manufacturer! He wants the most dollars for the trailer!
His participation in these Owners Forums is a courtesy allowed him as a trying-to-get-started manufacturer. With one exception, every one of his posts (in any thread) has been promotional of his product. I think it's fair to assume he wants us to choose a Snoozy over other brands, for any reason that works.

As he should. That's the name of the game.

But let us choose based on factual information, please, and not on feelings, and especially not on fear.
Several other posters, early and late in this thread, have asked for details related to Nicholas' assertions of "fact".
He gives none, nor does anyone else that agrees with him.

These forums are meant to be a resource for owners to discuss fact-based problems and concerns. We deserve the courtesy of being allowed to see the original source of purported "facts" so we may evaluate the legitimacy of the source for ourselves.
Absent substantiation, all we've done here is spread a rumor that in true internet fashion may well become a "fact". This kind of thing only adds to folks' confusion, especially if they're new to trailers.

Francesca

[jen b]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm new to fiberglass trailers and I really don't feel confused at all, nor fearful of my propane tank.

[Mr. W.]

I don't know if this is the information Nicholas saw or not, but this is lifted directly from the CDC website on CO poisoning (CDC - Carbon Monoxide Poisoning - Fact Sheet). It does not target RV appliances, nor LP gas, directly, but does mention the several hundred people...:

Where is CO found?

CO is found in combustion fumes, such as those produced by cars and trucks, small gasoline engines, stoves, lanterns, burning charcoal and wood, and gas ranges and heating systems. CO from these sources can build up in enclosed or semi-enclosed spaces. People and animals in these spaces can be poisoned by breathing it.


Who is at risk from CO poisoning?

All people and animals are at risk for CO poisoning. Certain groups — unborn babies, infants, and people with chronic heart disease, anemia, or respiratory problems — are more susceptible to its effects. Each year, more than 400 Americans die from unintentional CO poisoning, more than 20,000 visit the emergency room and more than 4,000 are hospitalized due to CO poisoning. Fatality is highest among Americans 65 and older.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by jen b

If it makes you feel any better, I'm new to fiberglass trailers and I really don't feel confused at all, nor fearful of my propane tank.

I guess I should have said "new to propane systems"!

Francesca

[jen b]

New to those, too, and still: not terrified.

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by jen b

New to those, too, and still: not terrified.

I'll get that last line right if it kills me.........
How about this:
"This kind of thing only adds to confused folks' confusion as if they're not confused enough already, being the confused folks that they are and it's way, way, worser if they're not only that confused, but to top it all off they're also new to trailers and propane systems.
Plus running with scissors, etc.
And in all cases, Jen feels pret-ty, pret-ty good, because she is most certainly NOT any of the above.
Unless she says otherwise."

Francesca

[GeorgeR]

Boats are different than fiberglass RVs or any other RVs. They are completely sealed from water entry. If the cabin had sealed doors the ventilation would be very limited. There are very special venting requirements for LP installation on boats. I never had LP on my boats, just used alcohol or electrical for stoves or heating. CO2 is slightly heavier than air, so it is possible that in a sealed environment, such as a boat, there could be excessive accumulation of CO2. If CO2 was present, it is possible that CO and LP were present as well. If the LP was not used in accordance with boating regulations, which are tougher and different than in the RV business, unintended poisoning can happen.
Molecular Weight - Gases and Vapors
George.

[LiL Snoozy]

It seems that once again I have started a heated discussion, whether or not that is a good thing I don't know. I read the article in question while waiting my turn getting a hair cut. I did not realize that a simple request for opinions would spark such a heated thread. Had I known that I would have kept the magazine and scanned it. Sadly I do not have it to produce. The article was stressing the importance of LP fume/CO detectors, proper maintenance and education, siting deaths a possible penalty. If memory serves me correctly it was an older issue of Yachting.
I was asking the forum's opinion only, not pointing blame or criticizing any manufacture. A poster said:

Quote "Several other posters, early and late in this thread, have asked for details related to Nicholas' assertions of "fact".
I never mentioned the word fact nor did I elude that the artical was fact. I stated the concerns I had and asked the forums opinions, is that different from what we all do here?

You are correct Francesca, I am a manufacture. I am on this forum trying to gather information for the betterment of my company as well as the betterment and promotion of my product. Learning what the consumer wants and then build it with quality are the best ways to create products consumers want to buy. When I first joined Fiberglass RV, I knew what I wanted in a camper. Since joining I have learned what other RV'ers want, like and need. We did not start this company to NOT sell campers, that would be bad for buisness you see. I take what I learn here and try to build a better product. I realize that it is impossible to please every one.

You are also correct in your assumption that I would prefer ya'll to choose a Lil Snoozy over other brands "for any reason that works. " YES I am very proud of my product. If I wasn't proud of the Lil Snoozy, why would I want to build them? Escape, Scamp, Casita, etc are wonderful options. As long as it isn't a "tin can" you really can't go wrong.

I very much enjoy the candidness of this particular forum, hence the reason I still ask and answer question. I will continue to ask and answer questions and opinions. As for promoting my product, Lil Snoozy is my screen name Nicholas is my real name. I will post updates on the the camper, as well as let the members know what rallies the Lil Snoozy will be attending. (The Lil Snoozy will be at the PA Ralley in July, spot 130.)
Nicholas

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by LiL Snoozy

It seems that once again I have started a heated discussion, whether or not that is a good thing I don't know. I read the article in question while waiting my turn getting a hair cut. I did not realize that a simple request for opinions would spark such a heated thread. Had I known that I would have kept the magazine and scanned it. Sadly I do not have it to produce. The article was stressing the importance of LP fume/CO detectors, proper maintenance and education, siting deaths a possible penalty. If memory serves me correctly it was an older issue of Yachting.
I was asking the forum's opinion only, not pointing blame or criticizing any manufacture. A poster said:

Quote "Several other posters, early and late in this thread, have asked for details related to Nicholas' assertions of "fact".
I never mentioned the word fact nor did I elude that the artical was fact. I stated the concerns I had and asked the forums opinions, is that different from what we all do here?

You are correct Francesca, I am a manufacture. I am on this forum trying to gather information for the betterment of my company as well as the betterment and promotion of my product. Learning what the consumer wants and then build it with quality are the best ways to create products consumers want to buy. When I first joined Fiberglass RV, I knew what I wanted in a camper. Since joining I have learned what other RV'ers want, like and need. We did not start this company to NOT sell campers, that would be bad for buisness you see. I take what I learn here and try to build a better product. I realize that it is impossible to please every one.

You are also correct in your assumption that I would prefer ya'll to choose a Lil Snoozy over other brands "for any reason that works. " YES I am very proud of my product. If I wasn't proud of the Lil Snoozy, why would I want to build them? Escape, Scamp, Casita, etc are wonderful options. As long as it isn't a "tin can" you really can't go wrong.

I very much enjoy the candidness of this particular forum, hence the reason I still ask and answer question. I will continue to ask and answer questions and opinions. As for promoting my product, Lil Snoozy is my screen name Nicholas is my real name. I will post updates on the the camper, as well as let the members know what rallies the Lil Snoozy will be attending. (The Lil Snoozy will be at the PA Ralley in July, spot 130.)
Nicholas

Perhaps I missed the point, but I have a hard time following the anxiety about this topic.
George.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

I'm surprised that Scamp, in installing the 3rd party refer, ignored the proper installation. The manufacturer of the refrigerator can only sell their product with instructions. If the vendor or in this case, Scamp ignores those instructions, who is the blame?

I am suprised also but I have to ask if anyone knows of or has heard of a problem resulting in a death or injury from how Scamp installs their fridges?

Logic tells me that Scamp has been venting to the side for more than 20 years (mine is 20 years old) and it would be a good bet they have been doing it for a lot more years than that. If there has been a death or serious injury that was found to be due to the incorrect install of the fridge I would think Scamp would have been sued and would have changed how they install them if it was found to be the reason for the problem. Logic also tells me that the fridge manufacture would have been named as a 3rd party -even if those involved had a good idea that the problem was with the install and not necessarly the fridge. The manufacture would have to spend money on legal fees just to prove the problem was not with their fridge but that it was all to do with how the fridge was incorrectly installed. Sadly that is how the legal system works. One would think the manufacturer would have stopped selling their fridges to Scamp if that was the case and they are concerned Scamp contiunes to do something unsafe with their product. Pretty easy to burn up any profit you make from selling Scamp fridges in legal fees if you are going to keep having to defend yourself in wrongful death or injury cases even if you win every time.

Is it just me or does something not add up? Could it be that no one has died or been seriously injured from Scamp install pratices? How many trailers with fridges have they turned out in the past 20 years?

[HikeSticks]

Originally Posted by Carol H

I am suprised also but I have to ask if anyone knows of or has heard of a problem resulting in a death or injury from how Scamp installs their fridges?

It is likely that Scamp is working with the manufacturer's of their appliances to ensure proper installation. If they want to use an alternate installation strategy they probably got it approved before going ahead. Not only would there be a potential concern for safety but an improperly installed appliance would void the warranty should a problem arise.
Barrie

[cpaharley2008]

Nick,
I'm in spot #132- looking forward to meeting you and Lil Snoozy.