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Old 07-02-2007, 05:04 PM   #21
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And here's another article from a Pop-Up Trailer Group (also from the Scamp Files):

QUOTE
Copied from rec.outdoors.rv-travel

This is about sway in pop-ups but it is good info for all types of
trailers


Can I Sway Your Opinion?
by Mark J. Polk


"Yaw,” more commonly known as “sway” in the RV industry, is a bad word
for pop up campers. The definition of yaw or sway is a side-to-side
movement. Nothing will ruin the way you feel about camping faster than
the first time you experience trailer sway.


You go to your local dealership and find a pop up with the perfect floor
plan for you and your family. The sales person knows that it will be
close to the maximum weight that your tow vehicle can pull. He really
needs a sale because things have been slow. Rather than risk losing the
sale, he decides not to explain the added expense of the proper hitch
work to safely tow your new trailer.


You’re all packed up for a weekend getaway. You made all of your pre
trip checks and you’re ready to go. You load the most precious cargo you
have, your family, into your tow vehicle and head out on a new venture.
Everything is fine when you leave the house. You take the on-ramp to the
interstate. You’re cruising at the speed limit, enjoying the music on
the radio. Suddenly, out of nowhere, a transfer truck going twenty miles
over the speed limit is passing you as if you’re sitting still. The pop
up is pulled into the draft created by the truck. In an attempt to
correct this totally unexpected event, you over-steer, and the trailer
begins to go in the opposite direction. Not really sure what to do, you
turn the steering wheel to the left, then to the right. Now the one-ton
trailer behind your sport utility vehicle is veering sharply from side
to side and begins to affect what little control you have over the
vehicle. The results are catastrophic…


Okay, since this is a magazine article, let’s start over and fix this
before you even realize that there is a potential problem. You purchased
your pop up from a responsible local dealership. At the risk of losing
the sale, your salesperson explains that you will require some
specialized hitch work to pull your new trailer safely. You are a bit
skeptical, feeling like he just wants more of your money. (Besides, your
father never needed any of this stuff. He just hooked his trailers onto
a ball on the bumper.)


You decide to give the salesperson the benefit of doubt and listen for a
minute. He shows you in his book that your tow vehicle is rated to tow a
maximum of 3,500 pounds. Then he explains what you must factor into that
tow rating. It includes the weight of your new camper, any after market
add-ons, like the roof-mounted air conditioner that the dealership is
going to install, all of the cargo that you load in the trailer and in
the tow vehicle, and the weight of the people in the vehicle. Now all of
the sudden the sales person has your undivided attention. You had no
idea that all of this had to be considered. Now he shows you the weight
label on your new trailer. The unloaded vehicle weight (UVW) is 2,100
lbs. The air conditioner weighs 100 lbs. To be safe, he estimates that
you will carry about 300 lbs. Of cargo, and then adds 400 lbs. (for you,
your wife and the children).


You are amazed how fast things add up. Now you have 2,900 lbs. instead
of the 2000 lbs. that you thought it was. It isn’t over yet. Your sales
person starts to explain that every state has different requirements on
how much a trailer can weigh before it requires trailer brakes. In your
state, the weight is 3,000 lbs., but as a responsible dealership, any
trailer they order that weighs over 2,000 lbs., they have brakes
installed by the manufacturer. He explains that even though your vehicle
is rated to tow 3,5000 pounds, the brakes on the vehicle were designed
to safely stop the vehicle’s weight, not an additional ton and a half
being pulled behind it.


He takes you to the parts department and shows you a brake controller
and explains that this is what activates the trailer brakes, and the
dealership can install it when they do the wiring for the trailer
lights. You like the features he explained about the brake controller.
The fact that you can manually adjust the amount of braking action, so
that when you hit the brake pedal, the tow vehicle and the trailer work
together to stop the weight in a reasonable amount of time. What you
really like is the part he explained about the slide lever that
activates the trailer brakes without using the vehicle brakes. He said
if you’re on a steep grade and you don’t want to prematurely wear out
the vehicle brakes, you slowly slide the lever and the trailer brakes
will slow you down. But what really sold you on it was when he explained
that if the trailer starts to sway, you could gently tap the lever
activating the trailer brakes on and off to help straighten the trailer
out.


He then went on to explain that trailer sway is one of the biggest
problems you will encounter while towing the pop up. He took the time to
explain that for the trailer to pull properly, the manufacturer
recommends that the tongue weight resting on the ball mount should be 10
to 15% of the total trailer weight. If it is more than 15%, they have
what is called a “weight distribution hitch” that takes the additional
tongue weight and distributes it to the axles on the tow vehicle and the
trailer where it should be. If it is less than 10% when you load your
cargo, you distribute it to add some additional weight on the tongue. He
looked up the pop up you were buying in the brochure, and the tongue
weight was 305 pounds. With the air conditioner installed and cargo
loaded, it would be between the 10 and 15% range. He said that a weight
distribution hitch was more commonly used with heavier trailers, and in
some cases with pop ups, depending on the tow vehicle. In this case,
however, it would not be required.


The next thing he asked was if the vehicle had a receiver. He explained
that the part of the hitch that is bolted to the vehicle is called a
receiver, and he showed you a chart that had several different classes
of receivers, depending on the amount of weight you will be towing. The
class II receiver was rated for 3,500 lb. gross trailer weight and 300
lb. maximum tongue weight. For a small difference in price, he
recommended a class III receiver rated for 5,000 lb. gross trailer
weight and 500 maximum tongue weight (since the trailer tongue weight
exceeded 300 lbs.).


With that done, he said he would show you a component that the
dealership strongly recommends to anyone purchasing a pop up. He walked
over and picked up a part from the shelf called a “friction sway
control.” One end of it is mounted to the hitch in the receiver and the
other end to the tongue on the camper. You adjust the amount of friction
by turning the lever clockwise for more friction and counter clockwise
for less friction. He explained that you turn it in 1/8” increments
until you get it adjusted where you feel comfortable. This will not
totally eliminate sway, but it will control it to the point that you
feel in control of the vehicle when you’re pulling your camper.


Finally, he said that would do it. For less than 10% of the price of the
pop up, you can get all of the hitch work done and ensure that your
family is safe when you go on a trip. At this point, you are convinced
that the salesperson has your best interest in mind and is not just
trying to make more money for the dealership.


Now you are all packed up for your first weekend getaway with your new
pop up. You made all of the pre-trip checks that the dealership
explained, and you are ready to go. The family is loaded into the
vehicle and you back out of the driveway. You take the on ramp to the
interstate and settle in, enjoying the music on the radio. Suddenly, out
of nowhere, a transfer truck going twenty miles over the speed limit
passes you as if you were sitting still. You feel a slight movement
behind you-- just enough to remind you that you’re pulling the pop up.
You look at your watch and tell the family that you should be there in a
couple of hours.


Mark Polk is the owner and operator of RV Education 101, a video
production and educational seminar company specializing in the RV
industry. For more information visit www.rveducation101.com or call 910-
484-7615

END QUOTE
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Old 07-03-2007, 09:12 PM   #22
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I am not sure I understand.

Is this a good thing?
Selling lots of safety things to someone pulling a 2000 lb popup with a 350 Super Duty Ford? I guess I missed something.

RD
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Old 07-04-2007, 06:27 AM   #23
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I am not sure I understand.

Is this a good thing?
Selling lots of safety things to someone pulling a 2000 lb popup with a 350 Super Duty Ford? I guess I missed something.

RD
Ron, what did you miss?

Rog
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:17 AM   #24
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There is a lot of good information in this thread and the control of the trailer-tug combination deserves plenty of respect. It is not difficult to find someone who has "lost it" at least once and failed to keep the shiny side up.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:00 AM   #25
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...failed to keep the [b]shiny side up.
Oh, maybe I shouldn't wax the bottom of my trailer...
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:16 PM   #26
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Quote:
I am not sure I understand.

Is this a good thing?
Selling lots of safety things to someone pulling a 2000 lb popup with a 350 Super Duty Ford? I guess I missed something.

RD
It is still possible for a 2000 lb trailer to severely mess up the control of a one-ton pickup truck under the right conditions (bad trailer balance, light rear end on truck, slippery road conditions), esp if the owner had decided he didn't need trailer brakes on such a 'light' trailer.

I would be unlikely to use WDH w/dualcam control on a rig like that, but it wouldn't be totally wasted money if one did. All that truck has going for it in a sway incident is weight and perhaps wheelbase if it's not a shortbed standard cab -- The power and the gearing that makes a 1/2 ton into a one-ton are relatively useless when it comes to control like steering and stopping.

Anyway, the salesperson that guy was writing about is only slightly rarer than a unicorn...
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Old 07-04-2007, 08:59 PM   #27
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Ron, what did you miss?

Rog
I am guilty of not reading closely.
Towing a marginal setup would certainly benefit from a frictional sway control device. But I have a 7000 lb 160" wheel base Super Duty 350 with a towing capacity of 14,000 lbs. I cannot imagine the benefit of adding a friction sway control to a 2000 pound pop up trailer.

All of this has been very educational and I am going to have to conclude that the term "sway" means different things to different people.

Now to go buy that boat!

Thanks for your input

RD
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Old 07-05-2007, 12:46 PM   #28
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It is still possible for a 2000 lb trailer to severely mess up the control of a one-ton pickup truck under the right conditions ([b]bad trailer balance, light rear end on truck, slippery road conditions), esp if the owner had [b]decided he didn't need trailer brakes on such a 'light' trailer.
(I added the emphasis)
The solution for this scenario is absolutely, positively, emphatically [b]not a pile more hardware to mis-use. Add brakes, yes, but a WD system and sticky bar thing? No. Sometimes, the only hardware to adjust is the nut behind the wheel.

By the way, if the truck's "light rear end" is a problem, a WD system would only make it worse... that's it's purpose! (to reduce rear axle load)

There are no shortbed standard-cab one-tons, so we're talking about a truck with substantial wheelbase (like 12 feet), good overhang-to-wheelbase ratio, stiff rear suspension, and massive rear axle capacity. If a 2000 lb trailer cannot be safely towed by a truck like this, the trailer is simply defective (in loading, suspension, tires... whatever) and needs to be fixed.
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:39 PM   #29
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It is still possible for a 2000 lb trailer to severely mess up the control of a one-ton pickup truck under the right conditions (bad trailer balance, light rear end on truck, slippery road conditions), esp if the owner had decided he didn't need trailer brakes on such a 'light' trailer.

I would be unlikely to use WDH w/dualcam control on a rig like that, but it wouldn't be totally wasted money if one did. All that truck has going for it in a sway incident is weight and perhaps wheelbase if it's not a shortbed standard cab -- The power and the gearing that makes a 1/2 ton into a one-ton are relatively useless when it comes to control like steering and stopping.

Anyway, the salesperson that guy was writing about is only slightly rarer than a unicorn...
I am thinking about the motorcycle Helmet law that they passed in California a decade or so ago. The talk shows were full of screamers shouting down the state’s right to issue laws to protect them from themselves. The dissenters had valid arguments in my opinion. Let us take care of ourselves. We don’t need no stinking help. Nevertheless our government is on highway safety like bees on honey. Think about that next time you get in your car. There are all kinds of things mandated by the government to keep you safe and your passengers safe and the other-guy safe. But how do they know they are safe? How does government know you should have turn signals and headlights and airbags and seatbelts? Perhaps research results? The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) as a branch of the Department of Transportation have engineers and scientist that investigate accidents, run the statistics, and perform the tests and if they say a seat belt will keep you safer then most reasonable people would not argue that point. We trust these guys to keep us safe. At least I do… as far as trusting the fed govt goes.

States also help protect us trailer pullers with speed limits, electric brake laws, tail light and signal light laws, riders disallowed in the towed RV in some states and tons of other things to make all of us safer. Would it be safe to say (pardon the pun) that if there was a significant risk in trailering that they would pass a law? I think so. Here is a link that signifies how states treat trailers and what laws apply to them.

http://www.towingworld.com/articles/TowingLaws.htm

Did you notice anything in the lists? Did they list the need for an anti sway bar or a weight distribution hitch? Or did they list top speed and electric brakes and such? To me it is self evident that if our overly protective government doesn’t require these safety add-ons and since U-haul and other trailer rentals don’t require these (in the most litigious nation in the universe) then the purported “safety” they provide is either lost on the experts in DC or a figment of some kind.
All that being said I have a 4500 lb Ford ranger pulling a 2800 lb Casita and I use a friction anti-sway bar. Why? I don’t know. The ratio seems a bit unsafe to me so I put it on. But I will never in any way broadcast anecdotal evidence as scientific fact. The *fact* is [b]nobody [b]anywhere has ever concluded with proper engineering discipline that lack of any of these do-dads makes you less safe. Most of it is over-sell, hyperbole, and vested interest. Just go to the other forum and find out for yourself.

What does make you less safe is speed and fixing that doesn’t require any hardware or money.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
http://www.towingworld.com/articles/TowingLaws.htm

Did you notice anything in the lists? Did they list the need for an anti sway bar or a weight distribution hitch? Or did they list top speed and electric brakes and such? To me it is self evident that if our overly protective government doesn’t require these safety add-ons and since U-haul and other trailer rentals don’t require these (in the most litigious nation in the universe) then the purported “safety” they provide is either lost on the experts in DC or a figment of some kind.
All the being said I have a 4500 lb Ford ranger pulling a 2800 lb Casita and I use a friction anti-sway bar. Why? I don’t know. The ratio seems a bit unsafe to me so I put it on. But I will never in any way broadcast anecdotal evidence as scientific fact. The fact is *nobody* anywhere has ever concluded with proper engineering discipline that lack of any of these do-dads make you less safe. Most of it is over-sell, hyperbole, and vested interest. Just go to the other forum and find out for yourself.

What does make you less safe is speed and fixing that doesn’t require any hardware or money.
Actually they do make laws restricting trailer towing speeds (I think Alaska is 45mph and many states are 55mph) and brakes (range from needed at 1Klbs in NY to 10K in MA) and overloading tow vehicles.

I suspect we'd see more laws on towing safety if more people were dying (hence helmet and headlight laws on motorcycles), but most trailer accidents that I read about on the various forums result in tow vehicle and trailer damage, usually in the ditch, with no serious injuries or fatalities (unless fire is involved).

As I have written many times, don't throw money at gadgets to magically reduce sway without doing the basic weights and balances stuf first on scales, or the gadgets may mask the problem until one finds oneself in the ditch wondering what went wrong.

Speed definitely increases sway.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:14 PM   #31
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I think Ron's point was that some factors are legislated (including brakes and speeds), but WD systems and sway control devices are not - there has not been a recognized reason to legislate those things.

I agree with Pete's point - legislation is driven by visible and dramatic problems. If trailers were routinely swaying all over the road causing fatal accidents, there would probably be some legislation. Of course, it would require whatever measure was of greatest interest to the special interest groups lobbying the governments, and have little to do with good sense...
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Old 07-08-2007, 06:42 AM   #32
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You guys need to do better research. Summary tables don't always tell you everything you need to know.

Quote:
[b]Code of Iowa, Section 321.430 Brake, hitch and control requirements.
1. Every motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, or motorized bicycle, when operated upon a highway shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop and hold such vehicle, including two separate means of applying the brakes, each of which means shall be effective to apply the brakes to at least two wheels. If these two separate means of applying the brakes are connected in any way, they shall be so constructed that failure of any one part of the operating mechanism shall not leave the motor vehicle without brakes on at least two wheels.
2. Every motorcycle and motorized bicycle, when operated upon a highway, shall be equipped with at least one brake, which may be operated by hand or foot.
3. Every trailer, semitrailer, or travel trailer of a gross weight of three thousand pounds or more shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to stop and hold such vehicle when operated on the highways of this state. Every trailer, semitrailer, or travel trailer with a gross weight of three thousand pounds or more shall be equipped with a separate, auxiliary means of applying the brakes on the trailer, semitrailer, or travel trailer from the cab of the towing vehicle, or with self-actuating brakes, and [b]shall also be equipped with a weight equalizing hitch with a sway control. Trailers or semitrailers with a truck or truck tractor need only comply with the brake requirements.
In Iowa, if a trailer is heavy enough to require trailer brakes, a brake controller, weight distribution hitch, and sway control are also required.

Roger
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Old 07-08-2007, 11:57 AM   #33
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You guys need to do better research. Summary tables don't always tell you everything you need to know.
In Iowa, if a trailer is heavy enough to require trailer brakes, a brake controller, weight distribution hitch, and sway control are also required.

Roger
finally a first! I have been asking and looking for state laws that cover anti sway bars and weight distribution hitches but this the first! Maybe we can find more. Do you have a link to that Iowa one?

Also, isn't that written as if you have 3000+pounds *and* only have self actuating brakes (surge brakes) *then* you are required to have the anti sway bar and weight distribution hitch?

what do you think?

Ron
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:54 PM   #34
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Roger:
Does Iowa honor reciprocity between states or is that an absolute requirement? We're planning a New England Trip in a couple of years, so that may mean going through North Dakota or something similar in order to avoid this problem with WDH and sway mitigators. Or is this an issue only you are aware of and ready to enforce? If so, what's the name of your town and jurisdiction so that I can circle it to be out of danger? I'd like to see your Bigfoot, but not with fines, impoundment, and confiscation being a possibility.
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Old 07-08-2007, 03:01 PM   #35
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Ron,

It is curiously written. It is interpreted to mean that all trailers over 3,000 lbs are required to have brakes of some variety and both sway control and weight distribution. It's a case of legislators obviously not understanding that neither sway control nor weight distribution can be used with surge brakes. I guess that, theoretically, if you have surge brakes, and your trailer weighs 3,000 GVWR or more you're in violation if you don't have weight distribution and sway control.

Here's the link to the Iowa Code advanced search page. Type in 321.430 in the "Section" box to read the entire section.

Roger
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Old 07-08-2007, 03:05 PM   #36
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Roger:
Does Iowa honor reciprocity between states or is that an absolute requirement? We're planning a New England Trip in a couple of years, so that may mean going through North Dakota or something similar in order to avoid this problem with WDH and sway mitigators. Or is this an issue only you are aware of and ready to enforce? If so, what's the name of your town and jurisdiction so that I can circle it to be out of danger? I'd like to see your Bigfoot, but not with fines, impoundment, and confiscation being a possibility.
Per, I believe that in most instances reciprocity would apply. Of course, I'd hunt you down and force you to state your case to the judge... and he's only in on Thursdays, which means a four day wait in jail if I cite you on Monday... Oh, no... wait... that was in Mayberry...

I suspect that no one would even notice, and fewer would even know about 321.340 unless you were involved in some kind of accident and a DOT or ISP officer investigated it. Just don't crash in MY town.

Roger
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Old 07-08-2007, 06:20 PM   #37
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Ron,

It is curiously written. It is interpreted to mean that all trailers over 3,000 lbs are required to have brakes of some variety and both sway control and weight distribution. It's a case of legislators obviously not understanding that neither sway control nor weight distribution can be used with surge brakes. I guess that, theoretically, if you have surge brakes, and your trailer weighs 3,000 GVWR or more you're in violation if you don't have weight distribution and sway control.

Here's the link to the Iowa Code advanced search page. Type in 321.430 in the "Section" box to read the entire section.

Roger
Wow! great stuff here. Are you a cop? How can I find like laws in other states. I am keenly interested in this subject.

Ron
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:03 PM   #38
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Umm, looks to me like a law that a brand new public defender who was last in his class at Podunk Law School, had to take the bar exam four or five times and was working his first time in court could chew to pieces.

Where does the weight distribution and sway hardware connect on a fifth-wheel or gooseneck trailer? Or does the 'truck' part mean that ANY truck is exempt, but SUVs and automobiles need WDH?
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:01 PM   #39
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Umm, looks to me like a law that a brand new public defender who was last in his class at Podunk Law School, had to take the bar exam four or five times and was working his first time in court could chew to pieces.

Where does the weight distribution and sway hardware connect on a fifth-wheel or gooseneck trailer? Or does the 'truck' part mean that ANY truck is exempt, but SUVs and automobiles need WDH?
I think since Iowa is one of a very few states that allows passengers to ride in the towed trailer that they probably did a bit of overkill just to make nice. But I could be wrong and that is the point!!! I would really like to see scientific data that supports or rejects any of this stuff. I am a mechanical engineer so I am not afraid of it. I just want to *see* it if it exists.

Anyway, this subject is crazy with anecdote and homily...nuff said.

I think I'll buy a boat too now

Ron
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:03 PM   #40
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I think since Iowa is one of a very few states that allows passengers to ride in the towed trailer...

Ron
Huh? I don't THINK so!

Roger
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