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Old 07-24-2019, 09:23 PM   #61
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Name: Adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Harold View Post
Not to split a hair, but oxygen and ozone are not different amounts of the same thing.

Oxygen is an atom that is required in some amount by every living thing on earth as far as we know.

Ozone, or trioxygen, is a molecule composing of 3 oxygen atoms, and is very unhealthy for living things. The use of an ozone generator in swimming pools can reduce toxic chemical use by 90%. It's the lesser of evils.

Dihydrogen Monoxide is very dangerous in some situations, and everyone is advised to be very careful in it's use. (Okay, my bad, I'm sorry.)

Harold

I know this is the internet and if there is any chance to take things to a new level of absurd somebody will jump on it but I just want to clarify before adding this one to the record books.



Are you telling me that the difference between dioxygen and trioxygen isn't as simple as the addition of one oxygen atom? In which case there would in fact be too much oxygen (the addition of a single O to O2 creating O3) for a human to live and it would kill you?
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:16 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TucsonAZ View Post
.......Are you telling me that the difference between dioxygen and trioxygen isn't as simple as the addition of one oxygen atom? In which case there would in fact be too much oxygen (the addition of a single O to O2 creating O3) for a human to live and it would kill you?
Adding water to water is still water. It's chemical properties do not change.

Adding a single oxygen atom to O2 changes it's chemical properties and it becomes ozone (O3) which is toxic. It's not "too much oxygen", it's ozone. But then it's about quantity too. There is ozone in my hot tub, in a quantity that is toxic enough to kill microbes, but not enough to bother me. If it were enough to make me ill or kill me, it wouldn't be too much oxygen, it would be too much ozone.

I guess I should have added a bunch of smiles to my post as it was meant to be informative and entertaining, it was not meant to be contentious or arrogant.

Quote:
I know this is the internet and if there is any chance to take things to a new level of absurd somebody will jump on it but I just want to clarify before adding this one to the record books.
It appears I struck a nerve. I apologize if I offended you.

Harold
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:27 PM   #63
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Adding water to water is still water. It's chemical properties do not change.

Adding a single oxygen atom to O2 changes it's chemical properties and it becomes ozone (O3) which is toxic. It's not "too much oxygen", it's ozone. But then it's about quantity too. There is ozone in my hot tub, in a quantity that is toxic enough to kill microbes, but not enough to bother me. If it were enough to make me ill or kill me, it wouldn't be too much oxygen, it would be too much ozone.

I guess I should have added a bunch of smiles to my post as it was meant to be informative and entertaining, it was not meant to be contentious or arrogant.



It appears I struck a nerve. I apologize if I offended you.

Harold

Well, I'm a huge defender of oxygen but it was just a small nerve you struck.


Mostly I was poking fun at the internet but I get it. If I'd said a mountain is just a hill with too much dirt on it you would have told me that the ecology is actually completely different and so on. Typically when you add something to something it changes and the characteristics change too be it adding scandium to aluminum or in the example we're talking about with adding more of the same thing water to water due to additional weight, mass and so on.



But I'm still willing to say a hurricane is just a tropical storm with too much wind however I've never been known for being pedantic.



Good thing there was no mention of tetraoxygen / :
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:38 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TucsonAZ View Post
....If I'd said a mountain is just a hill with too much dirt on it you would have told me that the ecology is actually completely different and so on. Typically when you add something to something it changes and the characteristics change too be it adding scandium to aluminum or in the example we're talking about with adding more of the same thing water to water due to additional weight, mass and so on....
Adding something physically is very different than adding something through a chemical reaction.

Thank you for telling me what my response to you about hills and mountains would have been. You would have been wrong.

But hey, I officially declare you the winner. Congratulations. You wore me out. I'm done.
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:49 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Doctor Harold View Post
Adding something physically is very different than adding something through a chemical reaction.

Thank you for telling me what my response to you about hills and mountains would have been. You would have been wrong.

But hey, I officially declare you the winner. Congratulations. You wore me out. I'm done.

Debating with me is sort of like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a few hours you realize the pig likes it.



Semantics all the same, clearly one, two, three, or four oxygen atoms are totally different things, that was never debated. I was just saying o3 was too much to be healthy for a human. My intention was to highlight the different between the smell of a flower and a petrochemical that smells like a flower.
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:52 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by TucsonAZ View Post
...My intention was to highly the different between the smell of a flower and a petrochemical that smells like a flower.
We agree on that. I like hazelnuts, but I can't stand hazelnut flavored coffee.
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Old 07-25-2019, 03:13 AM   #67
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We're in the deep end now! Some one throw me a lifesaver. I prefer mint because it masks bad breath.
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Old 07-25-2019, 06:36 AM   #68
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This whole thread has been a journey in absurdity !!
From what I see ,a few people (2%) decided that they have a problem and now they want to share/ force that problems on to others .
When we moved to the country, we traded the smell of diesel exhaust for the smell of manure I made the choice to move , the dairy farmer down the road did not .
I am sorry life is such a bitch for you but guess what it ain’t all a bed of roses for us either . I guess I have not developed my sense of self importance to a significant level .
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Old 07-25-2019, 06:51 AM   #69
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I vaguely recall this whole red herring started with a minor (but legitimate) frustration for a potential buyer: people put air fresheners in the trailers they’re selling. The smell is annoying (to some), but more important, it may be an attempt to mask something more serious: pet smells, cigarette smoke, mouse infestation, mold... Not always- clearly some people just like the smell- but as a buyer I have to suspect it’s hiding something. I’d be looking (and sniffing) in crevices and hidden areas for evidence that points to the source. Then I can make an informed decision about whether to proceed with a purchase, point out the issue and make a counter-offer, or walk away.

Good news is many issues can be remediated, including residual odors from unwanted air fresheners. With a molded trailer the main shell and cabinetry are hard surfaces that can be cleaned fairly easily. Curtains and seat covers can be washed or dry cleaned. Foam can be aired in the sun or replaced. Carpet-type liners can be steam-cleaned. Floor carpet can be removed and replaced with a hard surface. Once you eliminate the source and air it out for a time in a hot, arid location, it will be good to go.

The one issue that would be a deal killer for me is mold that has gotten under the shell lining and/or into a rotted subfloor. That usually means a major rehab project- which the price should reflect- but it’s relatively rare out here in the Southwest.
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Old 07-25-2019, 08:37 AM   #70
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I agree with the frustration of those who aren't sensitive, towards those who are, and feel like sensitive people's values are being imposed on them and the world is being taken over by whiners.

I lean more in the direction that the world is being taken over by sometimes dangerous, man-made concoctions, and while they don't bother some people, there's an understandable backlash.

It's like the people who are flabbergasted by "organic", and think it's some silly hippy conspiracy. "I want chemicals in my food, darn it!". Less than 100 years ago, all food was organic. More or less, under the current definition of the word in terms of food. It wasn't until we industrialized and decided to grow gigantic fields of mono-crops that we needed chemical fertilizers and pesticides. "Get big or get out". It has obviously helped with famine. But are those chemicals good for us? Are all the people who want to avoid those chemicals a bunch of whiners? I don't think so.

It's only one or two generations who where born into the human-made, chemical world with processed food and products, and assume it's normal. It's a small blip in the human timescale. Who knows where we're going next...
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Old 07-25-2019, 08:48 AM   #71
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The future

Maybe this
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Old 07-25-2019, 08:56 AM   #72
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Everything that exists is composed of chemicals, including "organic" vegetables.

Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen, both chemicals.
Problem is the association of "organic" with "good" and "chemical" with "bad". It's not that easy.
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:11 AM   #73
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I know, I know

But if, in every post, we went out of our way to define exactly what we meant and say things like "aside from the fact that everything is natural, because man is natural so anything man-made is natural", etc. posts would get very, very long. Even though as it's been pointed out, this is the internet and people will pick anything and everything apart, it's still nice to attempt a normal conversation.

I think it's clear what's meant by "chemical", though I was earlier using "laboratory made" as a stand in for "chemical" to avoid those kinds of comments...

For those clearly wanting a more philosophical discussion...If someone like Proctor and Gamble, for example, looks at, say, lemon. They break it down to its chemical components. Then, in a laboratory, they combine those chemical components from other sources, mined or created or otherwise, and put them together to create lemon flavor. Can this be labeled "all natural", "natural flavors", etc?

I can easily understand people coming down on either side of this argument.
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:19 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Iowa Dave View Post
Maybe this
Iowa Dave
Or go here, scroll down to "Wait But Why-Tim Urban", click play and scroll over to 35 minutes and listen to that take on the future...A warning, there is some brief "language".
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:19 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by ZachO View Post
...Less than 100 years ago, all food was organic. More or less, under the current definition of the word in terms of food. It wasn't until we industrialized and decided to grow gigantic fields of mono-crops that we needed chemical fertilizers and pesticides....
Well said. And the quality and freshness of that food 100 years ago -- unless you grew it yourself -- was not so good. Even today if a carrot doesn't contain nematodes (roundworms) it isn't organic. Refrigerators for home use were invented in 1913. Preservatives? Mostly sugar, salt, and vinegar. Go back even further to the 15th century and the drive to find sources of spices was to enhance recipes to mask the odor of food that had turned.

Politicians were talking about literally shutting down New York City because it was choking in fertilizer. It was saved by the automobile. Choking on exhaust fumes was preferable and saved the city.

But I digress.

You hear about people over 100-years old who smoked heavily all their lives and were never sick. Others get cancer at a young age and never smoked or engaged in risky behavior. We are all different, and I have no problem believing some people are super sensitive to aromas or chemicals, while others seem to tolerate environments that are almost toxic.

I bought a truck in 2017 and hung an air freshener from the mirror that smelled like vanilla. It looks like a duck's head. I like it. Five years later I would be shocked if it still had an odor. So maybe people with trailers for sale just like the look of their festive air freshener and aren't hiding anything.

Those who have said they would check very carefully to see if the air fresher was masking something gave good advice. But then you should check carefully even if there's no air fresher if you don't like negative surprises.

I wouldn't buy a car that had been smoked in because it's impossible to get all the residue out of the heating and AC system without taking it all apart, but I believe you could sanitize a fiberglass trailer with some effort. But then, I'm not super sensitive to chemicals.

Harold
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:37 AM   #76
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How far do we take this , I am 6ft 2”” so in the world of basketball I am vertically challenged . I don’t expect the NBA to lower the hoop to 7 ft so I can dunk the ball ?
Accessing the BWCA is difficult for me , should I expect them to put concrete walking paths through the wilderness so I can walk to a remote lake I wish to fish ?
My wife has COPD , should I expect everyone to quit driving their vehicles .
Life is not fair and I have no right to force people or businesses to accomodate every health issue that effects me
I have vision problems but I don’t expect the government to move the mountains closer to the road so I can get a better view !
I am willing to make REASONABLE accommodations for anyone but at some point I have the right to live my life as I see fit . There are too many small special interest groups trying to force their agenda on the public often using the government as a weapon
If the biggest problem we have is air freshners , deodorant, perfume and after shave then God help us .
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Old 07-25-2019, 12:50 PM   #77
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I don't disagree with your core point, but the slippery slope/false equivalency argument of mine stands. There's a difference between living next to a coal plant and gas fumes at the fuel pump while you fill up. Someone not wanting to smell you when they're confined in a space with you is different than demanding people stop using cologne.

If the OP is suggesting that you and I stop freshening our trailer air, I'm on your side. If you're saying I have no right to ask that the person in the cube next to me at work to stop soaking themselves in cologne, I don't agree.

I think we both agree it's a matter of balance. We're just making the same argument from slightly different sides of the neutral line.

The slippery slope, "if we allow this, where does it stop??" argument has been used to stop a lot of common sense action. And a lot of common sense action has been used to justify an extreme action. Glad I don't make the rules.
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Old 07-25-2019, 02:55 PM   #78
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When is enough, 'enough'?

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Old 07-25-2019, 05:19 PM   #79
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....... Glad I don't make the rules.
Make me king of the world and I'll fix all of this. Then you'll really be sorry.
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:23 PM   #80
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That is, I would set up regulations about everything to suit my preferences. I'd have a limit on how much "fragrance" was allowed and which kinds were permitted. All sound systems would have volume limits. Porch lights couldn't shine beyond the property line, etc.

It would be open season on drones too.

Ya, that would be good. Someone is only a tyrant in other people's eyes. Never in their own.
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