Year Scamp 13 weight was 1,000 pounds?

[floyd]

Of course the more options added the more the trailer will weigh. mine is a deluxe with every single option except the second propane tank. it is still well under 2000 pounds.
look at the Scamp web site, they have changed the weight numbers on the site to reflect realisticly accurate weights.
A basic 13 standard with a hand pump and an icebox could easily come out around 1200 pounds as delivered.
Early Scamps weigh quite a bit less. I once weighed a 1978 which I rehabbed and it weighed 1100 pounds as delivered to its new owner including all improvements.

[RogerDat]

If they come in under weight requirements the Hunter Compacts mentioned earlier seem pretty nice. Fairly low front wind profile and while the center has that pop up for standing room it seemed like it went up and down easily.

The closer you get to the towing capacity the more load balance, tires, brakes & hitching set up matter. Just saying if you want to tow a 1400 lb. camper with a 1500 lb. capacity TV then you better be on top of all the things that go into making for a safe tow.

"Dry Weight" while not accurate is a somewhat consistent measure between manufacturers. They have no idea what exact package of features or add-ons you will have so they give a weight based on nothing but a shell. It does not reflect the trailer weight when towed but it does allow one to say that one trailers dry weight is 400 more than another's. Assuming you are going to order the same size of appliances and features in both one can expect the one to end up still being 400 lbs. heavier.

Where things get wonky is when the slightly heavier trailer dry weight also allows one to get larger fridge, higher capacity water heater, water tanks, and dual 30# propane tanks plus an expando for a king size bed option. Then the "extra" 400 lbs. dry weight becomes an extra 2000# of trailer with the goodies.

Also towing hitch weight comes out of total weight the vehicle can carry. People that put 200# of hitch weight and fill the vehicle with people and gear are really making the vehicle work, possibly beyond its capacity, especially if the trailer is near the towing capacity.

I have an older scamp with no options, thing is very lite weight. Forget the exact weight but we did consider having the axle suspension reduced. Now packed with stuff it may be just a wee tad heavier.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Darral T.

And I also just noticed that they list their "tongue weight" at 100lbs?? That's not even the recommended 10-15% of the total weight if it IS 1200-1500lbs! Mine came in at apx 225 lbs.

Nope but what they list is simple a dry weight - the buyer/owners responsibility to load the trailer so it has adequate tongue weight.

[Darral T.]

WRONG Carol! I feel the Scamp (or any other manufacturer) should have the "adequate" tongue weight from the factory. I carry very little stuff in my Scamp and pack all I can in my truck. It's the manufacturer's responsibility to make sure they DESIGN their trailers with the correct tongue weight. It is NOT our responsibility to "add" weight to correct a possible "light" tongue weight out of the factory. That's ludicrous. I agree that it's our responsibility to load our trailers to MAINTAIN the correct tongue weight.

I personally dont think a Scamp will come out with a light tongue weight. But to me, it is another correction they should make on their specs...IF the tongue weight they list on their site is incorrect.

Originally Posted by Carol H

Nope but what they list is simple a dry weight - the buyer/owners responsibility to load the trailer so it has adequate tongue weight.

[Bob Miller]

I agree with Darral T. Any NEW trailer, unless otherwise advised by the mfg, should be at least safe to tow with 10% or more tongue weight.


Especially in the case of FGRV's where many a newbie takes delivery of their first trailer at the factory, the builder should take some responsibility to see that it is safe when towed away.


When you buy a new trailer at my local dealership, they go out of their way to be sure that the tow vehicle is properly equipped to tow, has a working brake controller, (almost always required on trailers sold in CA) and is within the towing limits of the vehicle. The official word there is that "If it isn't safe, it doesn't leave the lot". In a few cases they have cancelled sales. They even go with newbies on test drives if it is their first trailer.


But that said, I suspect that the tongue weight shown is incorrect anyway.....

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

I agree with Darral T. Any NEW trailer, unless otherwise advised by the mfg, should be at least safe to tow with 10% or more tongue weight.


Especially in the case of FGRV's where many a newbie takes delivery of their first trailer at the factory, the builder should take some responsibility to see that it is safe when towed away.


When you buy a new trailer at my local dealership, they go out of their way to be sure that the tow vehicle is properly equipped to tow, has a working brake controller, (almost always required on trailers sold in CA) and is within the towing limits of the vehicle. The official word there is that "If it isn't safe, it doesn't leave the lot". In a few cases they have cancelled sales. They even go with newbies on test drives if it is their first trailer.


But that said, I suspect that the tongue weight shown is incorrect anyway.....

Using that analogy retailers would stop selling chain saws to someone who has never used one before and car dealers would not sell a car to a person with questionable driving skills or no drivers licence... don't expect to see that becoming the norm any time soon.

As it is with every product we purchase its the buyers responsablity to educate themselves as to how to safely use it.

Having said that the weights Scamp publishes are DRY weights which if someone who has taken the time to educate themselves as to the safe towing practices they would know that means that the weight of the trailer will vary greatly depending on what options have and have not been ordered & its is not what the trailer will weigh with all their stuff stowed in it. Thats why Scamp has put a spread of 1200-1500lbs on the stated dry weight of the axle. Regardless as to whether or not the buyer had taken the time to educate themselves prior to shopping for a new trailer one would hope that the buyer would at least ask when ordering why there is such a spread on the dry weights stated and at that point in time get educated on the topic fast.

As far as their published dry weight on the tongue goes I agree it is lower than one would expect if they have opted to have propane on the trailer (some folks do not) - thats another 20lbs on the tongue which would in fact bring the trailer with an axle weight of 1200lbs up to 10% on the tongue. Some people want an all electric trailer no battery but if you throw a battery on the tongue guess what? tongue weight up another 50lbs. The addition of the battery and propane on a trailer with 100lb dry weight (no battery no propane) on the tongue brings an empty trailer up to 170lbs which I suspect most folks here would agree is good to go on a trailer with a 1500lb axle weight, which is at the high end of Scamps stated dry axle weights.

Scamp is simple giving people the option to choose for themselves what they want and don't want in the way of options and with that comes weight variables.

Based on what some here have indicated in the past as to Scamps customer service & help with set up at the time they have gone to pick up their new trailers I would expect that Scamp would would make the buyer aware of the issues of having to low a tongue weight, should a buyer decide to go without a propane tank or battery on the tongue & make some recommendations to the set up and stowage of the trailer in regards to that. Just as your local dealer does Bob. Could be wrong though!

[Bob Miller]

It would be interesting to hear from some newbies that picked up a new FGRV at the factory and what their experiences might have been.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by RogerDat

If they come in under weight requirements the Hunter Compacts mentioned earlier seem pretty nice. Fairly low front wind profile and while the center has that pop up for standing room it seemed like it went up and down easily.

The closer you get to the towing capacity the more load balance, tires, brakes & hitching set up matter. Just saying if you want to tow a 1400 lb. camper with a 1500 lb. capacity TV then you better be on top of all the things that go into making for a safe tow.

Having owned Hunter Compacts I must say that nothing I have towed , tows easier than a Scamp13.
As for tow ratings, there are some small SUVs on which the ONLY difference between a 1500 and 3500 tow rating is engine size... Same brakes, same suspension, same tires, same hitch , etc.
In these cases, approaching the tow rating for the smaller engine takes on a whole different cast than when approaching the tow rating of the same chassis with a larger engine.
This is something to consider, especially for those who travel at or below the speed limit.

[RogerDat]

Seeing Carol's comparison to chainsaws being sold reminded me of the fellow that quite his job and sold his house in the city to move to a working farm in rural America. Now this was a long time ago when the local hardware stores would run accounts for the farmers in the area.

One day the fellow comes in to get some dynamite at the local hardware and feed store, shop keeper asks what is the dynamite for and the fellow says he has some boulders and a stump to remove. The shop owner gets him an appropriate amount and the fellow asks a few questions about using it, then asks if the dynamite can just go on his account. The shop owner thinks for a minute and asks "you ever used dynamite before?" The fellow says "nope, but I'll be careful." shop owner says "me too, that will be cash."

[Carol H]

Good one! Thanks for the giggle!

But sadly I know of a situation in a little town I lived in where the same situation happened and the guy buying said he was going to use the dynamite to help clear out the tree stumps to help build a new church in town ... he instead used it to build the bombs that took down the Air India flight, as well as another that blow up baggage handlers at an airport. I personally know both parties and was as shock as everyone who know them that this could have happened and for the party who gave them the dynamite it was a forever life changing event.

Which brings me back to my original point - why and how can we expect the person selling the product to take on the responsibility of making sure the end user will not do something totally stupid with it.

As the old saying goes you can not fix stupid.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Steve in NY

True the plumbing isn't a huge deal, but getting rid of that bathroom, carpet, etc. is. On the plumbing, all those hose clamp gave me the willys. As for tongue weight, its pretty easy to change your packing plan to get tongue weight. These trailers are like a kids teeter totter. A couple of lawn chairs and a cooler taken from the back and moved tot he front can make a big difference. As for towing weight, unless you live on a flat plain, it does matter. I can really feel my Honda Pilot working pulling my 4000 pound boat, it hardly labors pulling the scamp. Also, braking distances will be reduced and the axle will be happier with less weight.

Steve

We have a Scamp 16 like Carol. We don't move a single thing when packing for a trip to adjust the tongue weight. Also we don't carry loose items like coolers or boxes of cords to 'balance' the trailer.

Everything in our trailer has a place, a place where stuff is not going to move around, a drawer, a shelf, always some king of enclosure. We are very consistent in our packing, light items near the ends, heavy items low and over or near the axle.

We do no trailer balancing to adjust the tongue weight. Our tongue weight has varied from 190-210 over the year's we've towed. Our trailer including the tongue weighs 2500-2600 pounds. We weigh our tongue at least once a year usually before we hit the road in the fall.

We like many have eliminated some of the heavier components, like the table and cabinet doors, replacing it with lighter material. Our first reason was we just didn't like the stock doors our second was weight. As for the table we wanted something that made the dinette more convenient to use.

Even if the trailer weighed near zero, the load on the tow vehicle would still be significant, don't forget it's air resistance that eats your mileage, If you don't believe it consider the effect of a 10 mile per hour head wind.

I would like dead accurate numbers on trailer weight from the factory, however whether it weigh 1200 pounds or 1500 pounds has little effect on the tow load. Regardless of what they tell you what really counts is the actual weight on the tires and the weight on the tongue and they really only count when you measure a loaded trailer.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

We have a Scamp 16 like Carol. We don't move a single thing when packing for a trip to adjust the tongue weight. Also we don't carry loose items like coolers or boxes of cords to 'balance' the trailer.

<cut>

We do no trailer balancing to adjust the tongue weight. Our tongue weight has varied from 190-210 over the year's we've towed. Our trailer including the tongue weighs 2500-2600 pounds. We weigh our tongue at least once a year usually before we hit the road in the fall.

With all due respect Norm and for the benefit of someone here who may be new to towing & this forum you may want to also mentioned as you have in past posted that you take the roads less traveled and keep your speed down rather than take the freeways as I often do.

In my personal experience with the same trailer same total weights as yours (& yup it is often weighed) and also taking great care to stow it correctly and having made a number of trips with the tongue weight at least than 10% as you do that speed and light tongue weight don't in my experience make for a solid tow. Far better (less stressful) towing experience at least for me, when the tongue is at 10% or higher under all driving conditions.

[Mike Magee]

The RV industry is over-filled with travel trailers possessing way too much hitch weight for practical purposes. By the time LP, battery, water and gear are added to the trailer, hitch weights can easily exeed 15% of trailer weight. This makes it very difficult to find any lightweight trailers that can be towed with 3500/350 rated vehicles; a 2500 lb or 3000 lb trailer can have a loaded hitch of 400-500 lbs.

I think Scamp's way of doing things is just fine. Hitch weight on the 16' is a decent positive number, yet there's room to add normal stuff and still have the hitch wind up at 10-11% of total weight... making them towable by many smaller vehicles that can't (from a practical standpoint) tow much else.

[honda03842]

Originally Posted by Carol H

With all due respect Norm and for the benefit of someone here who may be new to towing & this forum you may want to also mentioned as you have in past posted that you take the roads less traveled and keep your speed down rather than take the freeways as I often do.

In my personal experience with the same trailer same total weights as yours (& yup it is often weighed) and also taking great care to stow it correctly and having made a number of trips with the tongue weight at least than 10% as you do that speed and light tongue weight don't in my experience make for a solid tow. Far better (less stressful) towing experience at least for me, when the tongue is at 10% or higher under all driving conditions.

I do travel with relatively light hitch weights and unfortunately I virtually have to drive Interstates from NJ to NH. I absolutely hate the congestion in the Northeast and actually do sometimes happily drive the much less congested western Interstates. In the northeast I drive in about 62 mph, generally staying the right. I have never had a problem with sway. I do drive the roads less traveled whenever we can, if Interstates were the only route I would not have traveled for 14 years. We are not people driving between destinations as fast as we can.

We enjoy the travel not just the destination. We just returned from Florida, 1500 miles at a fast pace for us, 26 days. Of that trip about 500 miles was Interstate.

My point is not about my tongue weight but rather that I don't go around balancing my weight. I would never have anything loose that could slide in my trailer, not coolers or anything.

We consciously prepare our tow vehicle and trailer for travel, we have a working method and have never changed it. We do the following.. keep the ball as close to the axle as possible, raise the pressure in the tow vehicle tires, lock the tow bar in the receiver so it can't move (wiggle), run trailer tires at high pressure, places heavy items near or over the trailer axle, keep heavy items low, keep light items at the ends of the trailer, we carry no free items in the trailer, we pack the trailer the same for every trip.

In the tow vehicle we try to keep heavy items between the tow vehicle's axles, like the case of water we always carry.

One other thing, we have no heavy weights on our roof, like an air conditioner.

We do have an anti-sway bar and now always tow with it. When we first had the Scamp 16 we did not have one and never had an issue with sway towing 1000's of miles. We added it because it had been suggested it would be nice to have in an emergency.

Why do we have a solid tow and another does not, I have no idea why. I do know what we do.

[Darral T.]

Mike have you ever owned a Scamp?

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

I think Scamp's way of doing things is just fine. Hitch weight on the 16' is a decent positive number, yet there's room to add normal stuff and still have the hitch wind up at 10-11% of total weight... making them towable by many smaller vehicles that can't (from a practical standpoint) tow much else.

[Carol H]

Just curious about who some here would blame for a situation that took place involving a very popular trailer brand here and a new trailer owner.

The trailer if i am not mistaken is listed on the Real World Weights as weighed on arrival at the Bandon Fiberglass meet it attended not long before it took a big wag and ended up off the road and on its side. Brand new trailer written off by the insurance company. Suspect more than a few folks here if they were to look over the list of weights will be able to guess which trailers on the list have the highest probability of being the trailer in question based on the loaded axle vs tongue weight.

All I can tell you is at the time I saw the trailer - which was at the meet it was loaded up with a number of bikes on the rear. If it was weighed at arrival at the trailer meet as I and some others believe it was (I recall commenting at the time that I was really surprised the tongue weight was the same as my smaller trailer), then the owner received after weighing a nice clearly written up slip from Frederick that showed the weights on the axle and the weight of the tongue and total weight. So the owner would have been aware at that point in time of the actual weight of the trailer loaded up. The rest of the story as to how it was stowed inside at the time of the actual accident is all hearsay but the story goes that at the time of the accident it had some water in the rear water tanks (full? particle? unknown) and lots of stuff stowed in under the large storage area under the bed but little to nothing of any weight significance stored in the hatches ahead of the axle.

If it was in fact loaded up as such then the question is who is to blame? the owner for not knowing they needed to make sure the trailer was balanced correctly or the trailer manufacture for having built a trailer with large storage hatches and water tanks behind the axle of the trailer?

How many other trailer manufactures are there that also have their water tanks and lots of storage space behind the axle and a hitch receiver on the rear of the trailer? Should they all be held responsible for any accident that may result from what the end user decides to put in those spaces or carry with the rear hitch receiver? Where do you draw the line in regards to manufactures responsibility vs end users responsibility?

[Borrego Dave]

Carol, good post but I can't see the manufacturer being in any way the cause of an owners stupidity for loading or add ons. I've always wondered about newbies buying a TT and hitting the road with no towing experience, even with a utility trailer. It's good that some ask our opinions but there is nothing better than some real world experience with something small first. Seen some really oddball tows in the last 50 years and wondered how they ever got home without folding it all up. Angels watching over them maybe?

[honda03842]

It is unfortunate that the manufacturers don't make a small investment in "How To" books for their trailers. To me this could be a differentiator in the market place. For those of you have looked at Kimberley Caravans under General Chat, you'll note that they have 15 short books that provide information that is helpful to the buyer and owner. To my knowledge not a single NA manufacturer provides a single book.

[Bob Miller]

Geesh... This started out as a comment about a manufacturer possibly selling and delivering a new trailer that was light on the tongue, and had nothing whatsoever to do with what an owner might do with that trailer.


But it does raise the point about what the owners manuals for new trailers may have to say about weight and balance. I didn't see anything like that with either the SCAMP or the Lil' Bigfoot I owned so I don't know if they even existed.

The owners manual for a new 1973 Hunter Compact Jr titled "Important Information for the Safe and Enjoyable Operation of your Compact Jr. Recreation Vehicle" was a little over 1 page long and made no mention at all about weight or balance. I hope that current FGRV manuals are somewhat more informative.


It was unfortunate that the owner of the unnamed trailer mentioned above didn't get (or at least follow?) better indoctrination on the safe operation of their trailer. But why is it necessary to play guessing games about the facts of the trailer, i.e. weights, make and size?


It takes a Village.....

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by honda03842

It is unfortunate that the manufacturers don't make a small investment in "How To" books for their trailers. To me this could be a differentiator in the market place. For those of you have looked at Kimberley Caravans under General Chat, you'll note that they have 15 short books that provide information that is helpful to the buyer and owner. To my knowledge not a single NA manufacturer provides a single book.

Thank You Norm, I think that you answered a question I posed while you were posting this.....

Those that have seen a vehicle owners manual from the 60's might remember that they were in the range of 24 or so pages., Today 300 pages isn't uncommon and they usually have pages of info on towing safety, at least as far as the TV is concerned.

What Say, Builders ?????