74 Trillum 13' Leak

[Barry Konkin]

So - I spent the weekend removing three of the four windows in our Trillium, repalcing the rotten plywood with clear cedar, new butyl tape, reaplcing all the screws with stainless (who in their right mind woudl use drywall screws on a trailer??? SHEESH!) and replacing a leaky roof vent.

the end result: it still leaks.

i think it must be the belly band - there are some places where it bowed up and I can almost get a finger between the firbre glass and the metal of the band.

Can anyone tell me how to get the band off, what to seal it with, and how to re-install it?

thanks

Barry

[Daniel V.]

i think it must be the belly band - there are some places where it bowed up and I can almost get a finger between the firbre glass and the metal of the band.

Can anyone tell me how to get the band off, what to seal it with, and how to re-install it?

The belly band is held by rivets that grab onto metal clips that are glassed-in from the inside under a layer of resin (under the ensolite, that is). It isn't supposed to leak by design, but leaks do develop when the original steel rivets rust out and water seeps-in and freezes inside, causing small cracks to appear in the seam.

I fixed this nicely on our trailer by gently peeling off the ensolite with a sharp scraper and replacing the rivets with aluminium or SS ones that grab into a matching washer on the inside, then fiberglassed over them and glued the ensolite back on.

I'll be happy to provide any more details if necessary.

[Dave Baston]

Hi Barry,
The answer above is good, but trust me, no need to cut Ensolite/Membrane on inside. My way is 100% full-proof!! Do it from the outside.

I owned 3 Trillium's at once and had that same issue with 2 of them. Remove the black vinyl cover that is in the slot of the belly band 1st. The bowed areas that you stated, just carefully slide a plastic putty knife and gently pull belly band away from the trailer as far as it can go naturally. Then clean and carefully drill out old rivets that are still in belly band. The holes that are exposed from the bad rivets on the body only, just clean and use a dap of 100% clear silicone to seal water out. Now get yourself 5/32" x 1/4" to 1/2" length rivets. Drill holes to fit the rivet on each side of the bad rivets through both the belly band and the body while pressing the belly band to the body. This will give you a perfect fit when you install the new rivets. Once each rivet is installed, take that same 100% clear silicone and put a dap over each rivet. Repeat this around the entire belly. Clean the track of the belly band and for about $5.00 to $10.00 you can replace your old black vinyl molding to make it look like new. Last thing you must do is with that same tube of 100% silicone. Do a small bead on the top only of the belly band all the way around the trailer. Go back with your forefinger and slide it for a smooth clear "WATERPROOF" finish. This will solve your problem. If you have any question please ask me. Note: This will avoid removable of the entire belly band!

Dave
"The Trillim King"

[james kent]

I think that Bolers are close enough in general design that you could do the same as I did when painting the trailer. I drilled out the old rivets and removed the belly band. Then I got a tube of SPOT PUTTY from an automotive repair section at CTC and squeezed it into the crack between the upper and lower halfs of the trailer. Sanded the edge smooth and re-rivited the band back into place. While I had the belly band off, I polished it with aluminum and mag polish made for car rims. It came up great!
BTW...
There should actually be no leakage in this area. The two small ridges covered by the 'band' are only there to help the manufacturer clamp everything in together while they add several layers of fiberglass to the INSIDE. Then it's cheaper and easier to cover it with trim than to smooth the whole body. If you are still getting moisture it may be travelling under your ensolite or ratfur. It can seep quite a distance. If you have one, how is your canopy rail fastened? Or your roof vent? Do you have rain gutters?

[Daniel V.]

The holes that are exposed from the bad rivets on the body only, just clean and use a dap of 100% clear silicone to seal water out.

Dave, I like your approach. One thing worth noting is you should be careful not to drill all the way through the ensolite, though there is a small gap before reaching the membrane. In my case, the ensolite was half peeled off already so this was a no-brainer. But doesn't silicone have a somewhat limited useful lifetime and is more prone to sneaky leaks later? But I wonder if you could do it from the outside, but permanently sealing the holes with epoxy or resin beforehand instead of silicone. Thoughts?

Still amazing that within less than an hour you get two different approaches on how to fix a leak in the belly band of a 34 year old Trillium without having to remove it.

[Barry Konkin]

I think that Bolers are close enough in general design that you could do the same as I did when painting the trailer. I drilled out the old rivets and removed the belly band. Then I got a tube of SPOT PUTTY from an automotive repair section at CTC and squeezed it into the crack between the upper and lower halfs of the trailer. Sanded the edge smooth and re-rivited the band back into place. While I had the belly band off, I polished it with aluminum and mag polish made for car rims. It came up great!
BTW...
There should actually be no leakage in this area. The two small ridges covered by the 'band' are only there to help the manufacturer clamp everything in together while they add several layers of fiberglass to the INSIDE. Then it's cheaper and easier to cover it with trim than to smooth the whole body. If you are still getting moisture it may be travelling under your ensolite or ratfur. It can seep quite a distance. If you have one, how is your canopy rail fastened? Or your roof vent? Do you have rain gutters?

we have no canopy no gutters

I replaced the rivets on the drip guard over the door with new ss bolts and acorn nuts - and replaced the butyl putty there... ti was leaking as well.

I replaced the rivets holding the front window cover with SS as well, and new buytl tape, and and the same for the track for holding the cover - hopefully that will stop those leaks.

I am thinking that some water got in while the window was out and being cleaned (my tarp did leak a bit) and that I will let it dry out for a few days and see if it leaks next rainstorm.... maybe its' "old water" just finally making its way out???

i will probably pull the belly band anyway, check for rotten rivets / clips...re-seal with epoxy or resin (JB Weld) and then re-install it...I need to re-do the top black sealant - in a few places you can see right through it...
I will re-do it with the 3M Uv4000....

Barry

[Daniel V.]

I am thinking that some water got in while the window was out and being cleaned (my tarp did leak a bit) and that I will let it dry out for a few days and see if it leaks next rainstorm.... maybe its' "old water" just finally making its way out???
...
I need to re-do the top black sealant - in a few places you can see right through it...

You should be able to easily find out using a garden hose. Not sure about "old water"... depends on the amount you're seeing, I guess. By the way, what's the top black sealant you're talking about?

Happy leak hunting...

[Barry Konkin]

You should be able to easily find out using a garden hose. Not sure about "old water"... depends on the amount you're seeing, I guess. By the way, what's the top black sealant you're talking about?

Happy leak hunting...

I'm referring to the black stuff on the top of the belly band - it looks like black rubber caulking?

Wish i was at home and I'd take a picture for you...

[Dave Baston]

Dave, I like your approach. One thing worth noting is you should be careful not to drill all the way through the ensolite, though there is a small gap before reaching the membrane. In my case, the ensolite was half peeled off already so this was a no-brainer. But doesn't silicone have a somewhat limited useful lifetime and is more prone to sneaky leaks later? But I wonder if you could do it from the outside, but permanently sealing the holes with epoxy or resin beforehand instead of silicone. Thoughts?

Still amazing that within less than an hour you get two different approaches on how to fix a leak in the belly band of a 34 year old Trillium without having to remove it.

Hi Dan,
Thanks for your thoughts! You are right on the reply's! You are probably right on using the epoxy or resin. I would go one step further and use my fiberglass based epoxy that I used to repair a couple of the trillium's and scamp's I sold. I store my 1978 Trillium 4500 Deluxe in my garage for the winter. The silicone has held up for almost the entire 6 years I have own it. My ensolite was mint on all 3. Thanks!

Dave
"The Trillium King"

[Raya]

I don't believe that any caulking is necessary on the top of the belly band if it's installed with sealant on the rivets (which, as was mentioned, don't lead to the interior anyway unless something has been modified).

As I understand it the seam between the two fiberglass halves of the trailer is fiberglassed to hold the two halves together, and the belly band is just ornamental trim. The metal plates inside (but on the outside of the fiberglass joining strip) are to catch the rivets so that they don't have to penetrate the interior.

I'll admit I've got a "thing" about this (too many years working on boats), so I'm kind of opinionated on the subject, but in general, I believe that caulking around the outside rim of something is more of a stop-gap. The sealant doing the real job is beneath the flange of the item, and needs to have the partremoved and replaced in order to redo it. The belly band is a slightly different case, but I think the principle would still apply (sealant beneath the band before clamping to body or before tightening fasteners or rivets).

I do like that the design of the Trillium does not have too many "hull" penetrations.

Good luck tracking down your leak, Barry. At least you can console yourself that it was probably time to re-bed most of those other things anyway, and you can eliminate them from your "to-do" list.

This is a great group - there's nothing like posting a query and getting "instant" responses.

Raya

[Flygal]

On a positive note look at all the stuff you did to prevent future leaks...!!!! always a plus

So - I spent the weekend removing three of the four windows in our Trillium, repalcing the rotten plywood with clear cedar, new butyl tape, reaplcing all the screws with stainless (who in their right mind woudl use drywall screws on a trailer??? SHEESH!) and replacing a leaky roof vent.

the end result: it still leaks.

i think it must be the belly band - there are some places where it bowed up and I can almost get a finger between the firbre glass and the metal of the band.

Can anyone tell me how to get the band off, what to seal it with, and how to re-install it?

thanks

Barry

[Barry Konkin]

I don't believe that any caulking is necessary on the top of the belly band if it's installed with sealant on the rivets (which, as was mentioned, don't lead to the interior anyway unless something has been modified).

As I understand it the seam between the two fiberglass halves of the trailer is fiberglassed to hold the two halves together, and the belly band is just ornamental trim. The metal plates inside (but on the outside of the fiberglass joining strip) are to catch the rivets so that they don't have to penetrate the interior.

I'll admit I've got a "thing" about this (too many years working on boats), so I'm kind of opinionated on the subject, but in general, I believe that caulking around the outside rim of something is more of a stop-gap. The sealant doing the real job is beneath the flange of the item, and needs to have the partremoved and replaced in order to redo it. The belly band is a slightly different case, but I think the principle would still apply (sealant beneath the band before clamping to body or before tightening fasteners or rivets).

I do like that the design of the Trillium does not have too many "hull" penetrations.

Good luck tracking down your leak, Barry. At least you can console yourself that it was probably time to re-bed most of those other things anyway, and you can eliminate them from your "to-do" list.

This is a great group - there's nothing like posting a query and getting "instant" responses.

Raya

I see myself weeks from now, wandering around in the driveway cursing to myself and arguing with the ensolite... no sleep for weeks - dreaming about drips of water.....and then getting out a pneumatic hammer and cutting the damn trailer in half, just to find the cursed leak!

...sort of like Bill Murray in Caddyshack trying to get the gopher on the golf course!

seriosuly though - we have had the trailer for two weeks and this group has been fantastic - lots of great information and the instant responses are a real plus!

Barry

[Raya]

I see myself weeks from now, wandering around in the driveway cursing to myself and arguing with the ensolite... no sleep for weeks - dreaming about drips of water.....and then getting out a pneumatic hammer and cutting the damn trailer in half, just to find the cursed leak!

Hee. I remember you now because you were asking about towing with a Ford Focus. Have you by chance posted photos of your "new" Trillium on the forum? I bet I'm not the only one who would enjoy taking a look.

Boats are the worst for tracking down leaks - where the water drips onto your bunk can be a long way from where it's actually leaking into the boat. Frustrating! Actually, you might think along those lines: That the water could be traveling a distance before it shows up inside (such as behind the Ensolite). You may already be on that, of course...

R.

[Sahm J]

Hee. I remember you now because you were asking about towing with a Ford Focus. Have you by chance posted photos of your "new" Trillium on the forum? I bet I'm not the only one who would enjoy taking a look.

Boats are the worst for tracking down leaks - where the water drips onto your bunk can be a long way from where it's actually leaking into the boat. Frustrating! Actually, you might think along those lines: That the water could be traveling a distance before it shows up inside (such as behind the Ensolite). You may already be on that, of course...

R.

that's me! (us) we were hoping to tow with a Focus - no joy - and are now settled on picking up a Subaru Forester in the spring.

I have taken photos of the before of the trailer and will post a few - we were going to do a 'grand reveal' of the before and after when the whole thing is done....

[Raya]

Thanks for the advance glimpse, Sahm. I can't wait to see that green exterior emerge from under the oxidation.

Groovy upholstery, too.

Looking forward to the "before and after"!

Raya

[Doug Mager]

Looking forward to the "before and after"!

Raya

...moreover, ...Looking Forward to seeing this l'il gem at our GEM in Ft.langley in May, '09!!!

Thats one Sweet Trillium!!!!

[Daniel V.]

i will probably pull the belly band anyway, check for rotten rivets / clips...re-seal with epoxy or resin (JB Weld) and then re-install it...I need to re-do the top black sealant - in a few places you can see right through it...
I will re-do it with the 3M Uv4000....

There was no black sealant on mine, but various artistic layers of different silicone types. So I'd guess it was something done by a previous owner to cover those leaks that you're stuck with today. Time to do it right.

But from my perspective, there shouldn't typically be enough rotten rivets/clips to warrant taking off the whole band, unless that's something you feel compelled to do. I've only fixed 3 or 4 out of the lot so far, and the others clips were still very sound under their fiberglass layer, as I could see from the inside.

[Barry Konkin]

FOUND IT!

So a huge thank you to all the responses about the mystery leak in our Trillium.

I am 99% sure I have found the problem:

The first picture shows a slippery black worm that I found 'poking through' the fibreglass - SILICONE!!!






I then pulled a few more inches on ensolite and found:





I am now officially freaked out. The previous owner seems to have applied black silicone to the rivet holes in the belly band, and drilled a bunch of new holes in the shell - ALL THE WAY AROUND. The original rivets are still 'glassed in and untouched.





the belly band seems to be shortened on the left hand side of the door, so I think it was removed and then re-installed, but shortened and installed wrong.




I am going to get rid of all the black silicone, and use stainless steel screws to hold the trim to the body, and then re-fibreglass inside the body to stop the leaks.

We will also get rid of the old black sealant on the top of the belly band




and replace it with some 3M UV4000.

I HOPE HOPE HOPE this is the end of the leaks...

thanks again to all, and a pox upon the fool who owned this trailer before us!!


Barry

[Doug Mager]

Barry, BEFORE you go doin something with that belly band, you said it looked shortened?

How 'short' do you think it is?
Is it in two pieces (ours is and the seam connection is on the street side of the trailer. I don't think the metal band goes right tight to the edges of the door. Remember too that IF you replace that bubber insert in the belly band (readily available at most decently equipped R/V dealers) to buy at least an extra six inches and install it leaving lots of overhang on the ends (for now), it WILL shrink and after you notice that it has, then clip it back but still leave a little extra cause it might shrink a wee bit more!!

In the pictures of the actual belly band, is that a coating of green mold/slime I see on there? Thats what is/has happened to our trailer (silicone chalked) and I guess at some point I'll have to adderss that issue.
Remember too that the belly band will shine up like chrome with a buffing of SOS pads (the enclosed soap adds a little 'lube' to the buffing action of the pad. If you take the band completely off the trailer, thats a good time to polish it.

[Raya]

Barry,

In boating, this is known as the "DPO" (for Dreaded Previous Owner).

At least you've diagnosed your problem. It seems like someone must have removed the belly band in the past for some reason, so then when they went to put it back on they didn't/couldn't re-use the original rivet places so they made new holes and used new fasteners. I can't think why it is now too short unless they mucked up one end in trying to get it off and so they cut it off and shortened it....?

I have a few thoughts (although I realize I may not completely understand what you're planning):

1) I wonder about screwing the belly band back on. I'm thinking that the screw points on the inside will not "want" to be fiberglassed over without poking through - unless you plan to cut them all off (or maybe there's enough material there to bury them?). Still you won't get as much holding/drawing tight power as you would with something that has a backing, such as a rivet. Fiberglass is not great at holding self-tapping type screws, and it's probably not thick enough to tap for a machine screw.

2) Again, you may already know this, but when you go to fiberglass back over the seam on the inside, be sure to prep with something like acetone or Interlux Solvent Wash 202 to remove any traces of mold release wax, etc. before you sand. There is fiberglass "tape" you can use instead of cutting strips out of bulk glass cloth. It's nice since the edges won't fray and shed strands as you work.

3) Since you won't be using silicone again (!), something like a polyurethane caulk might work well under the belly band on the outside. I don't believe there is any reason to put back a bead of anything on top of the band once you're done fixing it properly. I bet there wasn't one from the factory, and I think they were only added by people trying to fix a leak the "easy" way, or by people who just thought "Oh, let's add a bead of caulk here."

All in my opinion, of course

Good sleuthing on your part!

Raya