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Old 11-29-2018, 02:59 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by floyd View Post
This should do it!

I would like a back in space with a good view.
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:31 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by floyd View Post
This should do it!
You will need this truck if you do the same with your boat:
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Old 11-30-2018, 12:47 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Bruce H View Post
This may be harsh and there is not much we can do about it but any trailer/tow combo that requires an equalizer hitch and or a stabilizer bar either has a trailer that is improperly designed regarding axle placement or tongue length or the tow vehicle is too light.
absolutely not true. WDH's are *required* for heavy trailers to keep the tow vehicle level. Even my F250 diesel, with an 11500 lb tow capacity, requires a WDH for trailers over 6500 lbs, which presumably have a 650-1000 lb tongue weight (the truck has a 2000 lb total payload).

re: the 4500(?) lb GVW Escape 21 on a Highlander with a 5000/500 tow capacity, its not hard for an Escape 21 to have well over 500 lb tongue weight.
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:46 AM   #44
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I tow a 4000lb/400lb tongue weight trailer with the same truck. Although I can tow without a WDH I use one because the trailer definitely tows better with one. Nothing tugs like a diesel!
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Old 11-30-2018, 12:04 PM   #45
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This may be a good time to point out that the U-Haul corporation has tens of thousands of trailers of various sizes that they rent to the general public. This includes many that are similar size and weight to our Scamps, Casitas, etc. NONE OF THEM HAVE A WEIGHT DISTRIBUTING HITCH.


U-Haul has a few things going for it:


1. They can dictate that the trailers they purchase meet their specifications (designed by engineers) regarding axle placement and tongue length (the axle is a few inches farther back and the tongue is a few inches longer). Most people can't spot this just by looking.



2. They can and do dictate a list of acceptable tow vehicles and they will not hook one of their trailers to a tow vehicle that is too small.



There is more to the design of trailers than just putting a box on wheels and seeing how short you can make the tongue.
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Old 11-30-2018, 12:43 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Telescopist View Post
Thanks. The dry hitch weight of a 21 escape is listed as 360#. The dry axle weight - 2780#. Add the hitch weight @50# give or take. I think I'm sitting at around 3200#. Then of course I have to factor in 2 people some stuff in the vehicle, a full tank of gas and stuff in the trailer - maybe 715# (19 gallons of gas = 114#) for the tow. I'm up to 3,915# before putting anything in the trailer. I better be careful.

Escape can estimate what your trailer will weigh with the options you select. Of course, it will not include your "stuff". Using dry weight of a trailer that does not include any options can be misleading unless you are going to buy one with no options.


There is always someone else out there "doing it". Myself, I don't put a lot of faith into what other people "do". Doing doesn't make it right or appropriate. And the terrain you tow, and the weight of your stuff can change everything. I saw someone towing a Boler with a Honda Fit one time. The Fit has zero tow rating. But they were doing it anyway. Would I do it. No.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:08 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by thrifty bill View Post
Check out weights in the real world. And every option adds weight. Most 21s are going to have many options. Popular ones include front tongue box, awning, AC, just to name a few. I assume the dry weight is accurate, but it does not include any options, does not include propane or water, typically does not include the battery(ies) either. And of course, none of your stuff is included.

Tongue weights on the Escape 19 are often close to 500 pounds. I'd like to see data on a 21, with typical options it should be over 500 pounds (exceeding your TV rating). The decision to exceed ratings is totally up to you. If you go with an equalizer hitch, that can weigh close to 100 pounds alone, which comes out of your tongue weight limit.
Thanks for the feedback. I'll ponder on what you wrote.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:26 PM   #48
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also the tongue weight goes up when the black tank fills as its forward. it goes down with a full water tank as thats in the back. the grey tank is in the middle so its neutral.

I suspect a lot of people will stow heavy stuff like flats(cases) of drinking water, soda, beer, under the front bed, adding lots of front weight.
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz View Post
absolutely not true. WDH's are *required* for heavy trailers to keep the tow vehicle level. Even my F250 diesel, with an 11500 lb tow capacity, requires a WDH for trailers over 6500 lbs, which presumably have a 650-1000 lb tongue weight (the truck has a 2000 lb total payload).

re: the 4500(?) lb GVW Escape 21 on a Highlander with a 5000/500 tow capacity, its not hard for an Escape 21 to have well over 500 lb tongue weight.
That seems to be begging the question. What about Pintle hook trailers? Tandem axle trailers should behave a little more like a flat tow.
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:20 PM   #50
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"If you go with an equalizer hitch, that can weigh close to 100 pounds alone, which comes out of your tongue weight limit."
I've wondered about this in the past but never looked into it. A quick poke at the Google landed me on the page of someone who says no, the weight of a WDH is not deducted from your rated tongue weight capacity.
Link: Does A Weight Distribution Hitch Increase Tongue Weight? | PopUpBackpacker
"It doesnít matter if the hitch is Weight Carrying or Weight Distributing ó VESA-5 states the hitch is not calculated into the Tongue Weight"
While I am inclined to think this is true, I haven't looked into this deeply.

Thoughts?
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Civilguy View Post
I've wondered about this in the past but never looked into it. A quick poke at the Google landed me on the page of someone who says no, the weight of a WDH is not deducted from your rated tongue weight capacity.

Thoughts?
How would your hitch even know it's a WDH weight and not some extra weight on the hitch from more propane tanks, more batteries or something else on the tongue?


Isn't weight is weight is weight?
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:11 PM   #52
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Doesn't help that some call a hitch receiver a "hitch" and some call a WDH a "hitch".
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:31 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Civilguy View Post
"If you go with an equalizer hitch, that can weigh close to 100 pounds alone, which comes out of your tongue weight limit."

I've wondered about this in the past but never looked into it. A quick poke at the Google landed me on the page of someone who says no, the weight of a WDH is not deducted from your rated tongue weight capacity.
Link: Does A Weight Distribution Hitch Increase Tongue Weight? | PopUpBackpacker
"It doesn’t matter if the hitch is Weight Carrying or Weight Distributing — VESA-5 states the hitch is not calculated into the Tongue Weight"
While I am inclined to think this is true, I haven't looked into this deeply.

Thoughts?
Yes, I should have said it comes out of your PAYLOAD, just like a traditional hitch. Article makes a good point that there are multiple ratings, ratings for each axle on your tow vehicle, payload, tongue weight, max vehicle weight, and max combined weight. Staying within all the limits and yet close to the max tow weight rating on my F150 would be impossible. My 9,800 pound tow limit is unobtainium with a traditional RV trailer. I run out of payload capacity first. It depends on the vehicle design.

The Ford full sized transit vans have significantly higher payload ratings than similar F150s (about double) , but significantly LOWER tow ratings (about half).

Regardless, as you get close to any one individual limit, there is a good chance you are exceeding another.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:18 PM   #54
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I wonder if it has to do with the weight distribution? Tongue weight is based on the weight the trailer puts on the tug. A WDH essentially make the chassis of the trailer and the tug a single unit. The weight of the WDH would thus be distributed over all the axles of the combined units?
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:47 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by floyd View Post
That seems to be begging the question. What about Pintle hook trailers? Tandem axle trailers should behave a little more like a flat tow.
ever try and back up a pintle rig where the trailer has a steering axle? hah! my kid hauls a 26 ton pintle trailer with a 5 ton army 6x6.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:52 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo View Post
Doesn't help that some call a hitch receiver a "hitch" and some call a WDH a "hitch".
VESC part 3.6
"Hitch." defined for specific uses under Section 3.6 (a. and b.
below), generally means that part of the primary connecting
system normally mounted on the towing vehicle, including a
ball-support platform and those components which are
attached to the towing vehicle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrifty bill View Post
Yes, I should have said it comes out of your PAYLOAD, just like a traditional hitch.
VESC part 3.8:
"Maximum Vertical Load on Hitch (Tongue Weight)" means
the vertical downward static force exerted on the hitch by the
coupling at the point of conection of coupling and hitch, with
weight distribution features or devices, if any, deactivated.
Tongue weight is measured at the trailer coupling, with the
trailer on a level surface (detached from the hitch), and with
trailer consumables and cargo in maximum loaded conditions.
So tongue weight is the weight of the tongue of the trailer. That makes sense and keeps the weight of the hitch out of it. The hitch weight being part of the vehicle payload makes sense too.

While this is all pretty heady stuff, I found myself nodding off as I read the VESC publication. Where's our "big yawn" emoji?

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Old 12-01-2018, 12:08 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bruce H View Post
This may be a good time to point out that the U-Haul corporation has tens of thousands of trailers of various sizes that they rent to the general public. This includes many that are similar size and weight to our Scamps, Casitas, etc. NONE OF THEM HAVE A WEIGHT DISTRIBUTING HITCH.
That's right trailers don't come with a WDH, so what's your point?
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:22 AM   #58
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Not sure I'd use UHaul as a model.
My buddy has had UHaul install his hitch and wiring twice and had to return twice to get the work done properly.
I'm not sure why he didn't learn from his first experience.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:15 PM   #59
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There "Appears/IS" a consistent theme here on this forum every other DAY and with fiberglass enthusiast trailer folks in general and that has to do with towing capacities of tow vehicles in regards to the loaded trailer weight and tongue weight of their fiberglass trailer they currently own OR are looking to purchase.

One of the "Thrills" of a fiberglass trailer to many is their perceived "light weight". An Eriba Puck camper at less than a 1,000 lbs IS light. A 5th wheel Escape at 5,000+ lbs is NOT light!

Many here on the forum and those new to the forum want to pull their "Lightweight Fiberglass Trailer" with a small SUV with tow rating of 2,000 lbs to 5,000 lbs max. That's all ya hear my "Fiberglass Frailer" tows great with my Toyota RAV 4 or Honda CRV with my WDH or other trailer towing aids. IF you had a CAPABLE tow vehicle you would not need all these "Towing Aids" to pull a 3,000 lb or LESS FIBERGLASS TAG TRAILER!

Stopping your "RIG" and Emergency Control Ability of your rig also needs to be BIG consideration this equation of tow vehicle selection yet there is never much discussion about stopping and safety when it comes to tow vehicles. It's more about comfort and fuel mileage when these discussions arise. Ya I know everyone wants the best fuel mileage they can get and the TOW RATING on my Honda CRV/Toyota RAV 4 is greater than the loaded weight of my fiberglass trailer so I am good to go. If that's the case then WHY DO NEED TOWING AIDS to make your rig safe and capable when towing your trailer?

All of this discussion is great HOWEVER how about selecting the trailer you want and BEFORE you buy that trailer how about making sure that tow vehicle you already own or will purchase is anywhere near capable of safely towing your new trailer WITHOUT all the trailer towing BAND AIDS discussed above?

What a "Novel" idea!!!
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:16 PM   #60
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The number of axels is determined by the manufacturer based on the length and weight of the trailer.

Based on real life experience I was thankful when I had two axels and 4 tires when one went flat. I had no dangerous handling problems when this happened. I can assume a single axel two wheel set up might present a real safety problem in maintaining control with a flat....perhaps other veterans of RV towing might share their experiences with flats on two wheel trainers.

Every trailer I have owned has had two axels and handles quite well with weight distribution and sway control.
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