Progressive Dynamics PD-6911

[Daisy]

I LOVE this time of year....I love sugar cookies in particular! So, I bought a little toaster oven to make some sugar cookies (you know, the nasty-oh-so-good Pillsbury ones) in my 1978 Trillium 1300 at the dog shows on Saturday nights. Nothing sounded better than holing up with a book, or a DVD, my 3 dogs, and smelling sugar cookies baking in my toaster oven. I hooked up the toaster oven, sliced off a couple slices of dough, and started the toaster oven. Then the lights went dark. DARN!!

I can run a rice cooker in my trailer, but can't run the toaster oven, even if all the lights are turned off. I have a Progressive Dynamics PD6911, and in the little infopage/manual that came with the trailer, it says it is supposed to have a 15 amp fuse. BUT, on the front of the converter, the fuse door (it's a blue button that says "press") says 10AMP very clearly. I haven't taken the fuse out yet, but, could I replace the 10 amp fuse with a 15 amp fuse, as that's what the manual says it is supposed to have? AND, if I do that, will I be able to run my toaster oven and maybe a hair dryer (not at the same time obviously!!), or am I looking at having to replace the converter with a newer model?

Here's my next question. Assuming that I must replace the converter, 1)how involving is the project, and 2) are there any converters out there that take up the same space as the older ones (12"Lx3.5"Dx6"H)? I really don't want to cut up the Trillium - she's so nice and I'd like to keep it original if possible. BUT, I want some darned sugar cookies baking in that trailer over the New Year's weekend! :-) I have the next week and a half off, so I can devote some time to the project, but not if it is too overwhelming...

Thanks,
Daisy

[Roger H]

Daisy, I'm a little confused. Your converter powers the 12v system. Your toaster oven, unless it's 12v runs off the 120AC system which should have it's own breaker box somewhere. The 120v AC and 12v DC systems are completely separate, except that the 12v DC converter requires 120v AC to operate.

I doubt that replacing a 10 amp 12v DC fuse with a 15 amp fuse in a DC converter that calls for a 15 amp fuse will cause any problems at all, but I also doubt that it will solve your problem. If your converter is working and gives you 12v lights when you're plugged in to 120v AC, then there's really no reason to replace it, unless it's not properly charging your battery or you have some other issue with it.

Can you describe where your 120v circuit breaker/fuse box is located? If you have the same setup as I had in my '87 Burro, a breaker-outlet, you probably will either have to replace the fused outlet with a standard outlet and residential-style breaker box under the sink. My breaker-outlet was so weak I couldn't run an electric heater.

This photo is of the breaker-outlet my Burro had in it:






Roger

[Terry G.]

Could be that it has an "inverter" (12v to 120 ac )and its a small one not able to handle the load the toster requires ?

[Daisy]

I was thinking about that after I posted, and of course you're correct. When you look at my converter's front panel, there is a fuse on the right, which upon closer inspection is for the 12V system. On the left, there's a push/pull type fuse for the "115vac" system. When the toaster oven is plugged in, this button pops out, and pushing it in restores power to the trailer. So the 10amp fuse I was looking at was for the 12V system. The pushbutton on the left is for the 115v AC (isn't it suppose to be 120? Maybe that's my problem).

So that's kind of what I was thinking after browsing more through the site...either replace the breaker in the converter, or get a residential breaker box to replace it, or get a new converter entirely...

Thanks,
Daisy

Daisy, I'm a little confused. Your converter powers the 12v system. Your toaster oven, unless it's 12v runs off the 120AC system which should have it's own breaker box somewhere. The 120v AC and 12v DC systems are completely separate, except that the 12v DC converter requires 120v AC to operate.

I doubt that replacing a 10 amp 12v DC fuse with a 15 amp fuse in a DC converter that calls for a 15 amp fuse will cause any problems at all, but I also doubt that it will solve your problem. If your converter is working and gives you 12v lights when you're plugged in to 120v AC, then there's really no reason to replace it, unless it's not properly charging your battery or you have some other issue with it.

Can you describe where your 120v circuit breaker/fuse box is located? If you have the same setup as I had in my '87 Burro, a breaker-outlet, you probably will either have to replace the fused outlet with a standard outlet and residential-style breaker box under the sink. My breaker-outlet was so weak I couldn't run an electric heater.

This photo is of the breaker-outlet my Burro had in it:


Attachment 5714

Roger

[Roger H]

Daisy, it sounds like you have a 120v AC side and a 12v DC side to your converter. I'm not conversant at all with that specific model. I'm not sure I understand the "push-pull" fuse on the 120v side either.

Perhaps if you could post a photo of the box, it would be easier to give you some suggestions about how to deal with your problem.

Roger

On edit... in the OLD days when I grew up, it used to be called 110v AC. Then over the years, 115v AC appeared, and now the actual voltage should be a nominal 120v AC. It's all the same stuff and as long as you're plugged into an outlet provided by a commercial power supplier (your electric company rather than a genset) source, it should be fine.

[Brian B-P]

Like many trailers, this does sound like an AC power distribution panel (just like the "fuse box" or "breaker panel" in a house) packaged along with the converter (which takes AC and makes DC), and probably the 12V DC fuses (or breakers) as well. All of mine (in my Boler) are in two boxes which are attached together.

The toaster oven takes much more power than the rice cooker, so it sounds like the main AC circuit breaker, or the breaker for the circuit that supplies the outlet, is either undersized or just old and tired (breakers tend to start tripping at lower-than-specified current when they get old). Fortunately, if it's just a matter of a new breaker of the right rating (no wiring changes), then that's probably cheap and easy (depending on brand!).

[Daisy]

Daisy, it sounds like you have a 120v AC side and a 12v DC side to your converter. I'm not conversant at all with that specific model. I'm not sure I understand the "push-pull" fuse on the 120v side either.

Perhaps if you could post a photo of the box, it would be easier to give you some suggestions about how to deal with your problem.

Roger

On edit... in the OLD days when I grew up, it used to be called 110v AC. Then over the years, 115v AC appeared, and now the actual voltage should be a nominal 120v AC. It's all the same stuff and as long as you're plugged into an outlet provided by a commercial power supplier (your electric company rather than a genset) source, it should be fine.

Here's a picture of the converter, taken from the manual that I have (the actual convert looks just like this, but it's too cold/I'm too lazy to go outside, and the manual is right here). When I say push/pull, I mean when the circuit breaker is tripped, the button pops out, and you must push it back in to restore power to the circuit. I'm not sure how to replace it. I'm going to stop by RV Parts Outlet in Tigard today and pick the owners' brains :-)

[Daisy]

Like many trailers, this does sound like an AC power distribution panel (just like the "fuse box" or "breaker panel" in a house) packaged along with the converter (which takes AC and makes DC), and probably the 12V DC fuses (or breakers) as well. All of mine (in my Boler) are in two boxes which are attached together.

The toaster oven takes much more power than the rice cooker, so it sounds like the main AC circuit breaker, or the breaker for the circuit that supplies the outlet, is either undersized or just old and tired (breakers tend to start tripping at lower-than-specified current when they get old). Fortunately, if it's just a matter of a new breaker of the right rating (no wiring changes), then that's probably cheap and easy (depending on brand!).

Heh, except I have no idea how to install a new breaker. As there's no access panel on the outside, I'm guessing I'll have to remove the converter on the inside? As I said before, I am lucky enough to live within driving distance of a store called RV Parts Outlet, located in Tigard - those guys are a great source of info. I'll post what I find out from them later today, and hopefully you all will have more information a well!

Thanks again,
Daisy

[jasoncarder]

There may not be a problem with your breaker. Your picture shows a 15 amp breaker. At 120 VAC, that translates to 1800 watts. Before you buy a new breaker, check the wattage on your toaster oven. If it's over 1800 watts, a new breaker will trip as well.

[Roger H]

Daisy, I think Jason nailed it. If your breaker is weak, it should be reasonably simple to replace, but I'd check your toaster oven first and see what kind of wattage you're actually drawing.

Roger

[Brian B-P]

An appliance which draws more than 15 amps would need to be equipped with a 20A style (or higher-capacity) plug, and would likely not be compatible with a typical receptacle (there is a 20A style with the same pins/blades, but one is rotated from the orientation it has in the 15A style). I would be very surprised if a toaster oven needed more than 15A, since essentially all household receptacles are wired and breaker-protected for 15A, but it might need very nearly the whole 15A all by itself. But Jason's right: it costs nothing to read the label on the appliance.

The AC breakers in my Boler are normal household units (toggle switch style), not the push-to-reset type here. On my 12V DC side, it does have similar-looking circuit breakers (they're actually rated for at least 125V, but fine for low voltage DC as well). I needed to replace one (same tired old early-tripping problem), and could not find them for a while, but they are now in Go-RV's Coast catalog (as Bussmann Panel Mounted Breakers, page 79, 15A is item 13419), and thus readily available and cheap; it seems that they are now only an RV item.

To do the replacement safely, there must be no power connected. With no master switch in sight, the obvious solution is to unplug the cord which supplies AC power to the trailer. Still be careful around the converter, as there may be some capacitors in the there holding some charge.

If the Progressive Dynamics unit has this style of breakers, they are removed by removing the nut which surrounds the part which sticks out, then pulling them out of the hole in the panel from the back. That means at least the front panel must come off, which is likely easy. Note that the terminals to which the wires attach are available as ".25" or 90 degree bent"; the first means flat quarter-inch-wide blades (also known as a spade) to match a push-on terminal on the wire, while it looks like the bent terminals have screws for bare wires or forked wire ends. This means either buying both types and returning the ones which don't match, or taking the panel off for a look before buying. Mine (on the DC side, and a different converter brand) were the 0.25" spades.

Finally, I notice that there are two of these push-to-reset (no "pull") breakers: my guess is that one feeds the outlet and the other feeds the converter. Usually the ratings are printed right on the end of the button which pops out; the converter should need only a few amps.

[Benny K]

Seems possible that somewhere down the road someone replaced the breaker switch with a 10A version, possibly due to availability, when the original 15A version went soft......looks like it could simply be replaced with a 15A Bussman Panel Mounted Breaker and problem solved... ..Benny

[Christi W]

Wow, we just bought a Delonghi oven just for the Burro - for cookies of course!! I checked, it is 15 amps. I was wondering if I could put it on a extension cord and stick it through the same hole that the major electric cord goes through.

Don't most RV campsites have a couple of plugs, one regular and one for the usual RV cord. That might solve the problem of lights or chocolate chip cookies

Merry Christmas, everybody
Christi

[Donna D.]

Don't most RV campsites have a couple of plugs, one regular and one for the usual RV cord.

Lots of people run their "Flamingo" Patio lights from the awning to the campground power box via extension cord. It's the KISS principle.

[Daisy]

Lots of people run their "Flamingo" Patio lights from the awning to the campground power box via extension cord. It's the KISS principle.

My RV plug *is* a regular plug, not a 20A plug or anything special...and I do plug my awning lights in via an extension cord direct to the power pole.

I'm going to take the converter out of it's hole in the cabinetry this week, but the easiest, and least expensive solution, as well as the solution that requires the least modification to the trailer, sounds like it is going to be the one where I disconnect the outlets from the converter, split the power feed upstream of the converter, and run a breaker box between the power and the outlets, and run the converter off the other side of the split. Hopefully there's room inside the cabinet where the converter is to store the breaker box as well as the converter, so no cabinet cutting will be required...although I may end up putting the breaker box under the seat or something so I can actually quickly access it should the breaker get tripped.

Daisy

[Brian B-P]

My RV plug *is* a regular plug, not a 20A plug or anything special...and I do plug my awning lights in via an extension cord direct to the power pole.

I'm going to take the converter out of it's hole in the cabinetry this week, but the easiest, and least expensive solution, as well as the solution that requires the least modification to the trailer, sounds like it is going to be the one where I disconnect the outlets from the converter, split the power feed upstream of the converter, and run a breaker box between the power and the outlets, and run the converter off the other side of the split...

If the outlet for the kitchen appliance(s) needs 15 A all by itself, then [b]one 15A circuit feeding the whole trailer won't be enough, and it seems to me that you will need to upgrade your incoming service cord and plug from 15A to something greater (presumably 30A).

If all of the power coming into the trailer is going to be on that one 15A cord, then I think it would make sense to just ensure that a 15A breaker (whether it is a household style or auto/RV push-to-reset panel-mounted breaker) feeds the outlet in the current system.

[Pete Dumbleton]

Here's a post to another group that might be of interest here.

Pete

QUOTE
Thought I'd mention a couple of good deals that I've come across.

One is at Progressive Dynamics, one of best converter/charger makers,
IMHO. They have plenty of factory refurbs at great prices:


https://www.progressivedyn.com/hotdeals.html


Their stock waxes and wanes so I thought I'd mention that they have a
practically full line available. I just ordered another 9180A, the 80
amp version with the Charge Wizard built in. I keep one around as a
high power, intelligent battery charger that works without having to
press any buttons.


Northern has a sale going on that sweet little 2-stroke generator that
I've mentioned before:


http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/sto...oduct_6970_20...


I bought one of these several years ago from a ChiCom tool vendor at a
fleamarket. A veritable workhorse that will handle significant
overload, especially if frequency isn't terribly important. I've used
mine with the 60 amp Intellipower in my MH and as of the last couple
of weeks, in my semi truck to charge the BAAGM (big assed AGM) battery
I installed to run my electric blanket and other accessories when I'm
on a multi-day layover. When underway, I plug the Intellipower into
my 1500 watt inverter to charge the BAAGM. Does a very fast,
intelligent charge from the engine electrical system.


The BAAGM approach is a good one for operating moderate power drain
loads overnight. I plug the electric blanket (5.5 amps) and the
laptop converter (about the same) into it when I hit the sack. At 120
AH, it has the capacity to run both for the 6-8 hours I sleep without
impacting the truck batteries at all.


The truck has a low voltage cut-off that inconveniently cuts power to
everything at about the 6 hour point when I try to run these loads on
the main battery (4 8C truck batteries) system. I just stuck the
BAAGM under my bunk and mounted a series of cig lighter sockets to the
top of the battery using GM VHB double sided adhesive tape. The
Intellipower and the inverter sit right beside it.


This might be a good solution in an RV for similar situations. The
BAAGM can be placed under the bed, as space permits, and run the
electric blanket, etc., without affecting the main house batteries.


The Intellipower at full chat into a dead battery pulls right at 1100
watts from the line. This little generator handles it just fine. It
slows down a little (frequency drops to about 56-57 hz) but the
voltage stays up just fine and the Intellipower couldn't care less
about frequency.


Anyway, add some of the smokeless two stroke oil now available
(Northern has it.) and the generator is practically indistinguishable
from a 4-stroke. Not Honda EU quiet but not bad.


I should note that this generator is currently listed in the Chatta
store for $149 but they'll honor the web price if you ask. Not bad,
web price and no shipping.


I just bought a second one dedicated to the semi truck. Gotta fab a
frame rack for it while I'm off on Christmas Vacation. I'm about to
buy a third generator to disassemble and rewind for 12 volts and
convert it to a CBC.


John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
END QUOTE

[TomA]

Here is the 'Factory'' answer.

Back in the 70's, none of today's conveniences were available. The 15 amp breaker was sufficient to run 'everything one could wish for'. - Except the roof A/C unit.

The solution is the same as for air conditioning. Cooking appliances are high amp draw devices which require an electrical upgrade similar to the following:

Replace the 15 amp power cord with a 30 amp one. (Do not connect back to the converter.)
Install a small 2 circuit breaker box in the angled portion of the seat next to the kitchen - about 8" - 12" above the floor. Readily available from electric shops or Home Depot.
Install a new 15 amp outlet convenient to the place where you use the new appliances.
From one of the circuit breakers, run a wire back to the power converter. BTW, from the problem description, it seems to be working correctly. The button that pops out is a resetable breaker. Probably hard to find as a replacement so many years later.
From the other circuit breaker, run a wire to the new outlet for the portable appliances.

Check the wattage on the appliances you want to run. Do not run more than 1800 watts at one time. (15 amps).

This all assumes that you are experienced/comfortable with AC wiring, and cutting fiberglass. If not, then these directions should be taken to a qualified RV service dealer and done.

The method above was done at the factory for trailers with the A/C option. It was CSA, UL, & RVIA approved.


Tom Young
Trillium RV