RV Fires While Towing - Propane Risks?

[Lawrence in NC]

Originally Posted by librarianocnj

Reading this thread got me thinking. Does anybody remember having a gas heater in their car. It siphoned off gas from the carburetor to burn in a separate heater. Heat came on in 10 seconds. No waiting for engine to warm up.

Only a child of 5 when we had a Ford woody wagon with a gasoline heater. Scorched the right front passenger and did little good for anyone else. Can't remember Mother liking the thing at all!

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by steelypip

One thing I did in my vintage camper was to put in GFCIs on both circuits. These don't generally save you from fires, but they can do a fine job of saving you from an electrical shock. Planning ahead to arc-fault breakers (which may happen sooner, rather than later, as I noticed that one of my stock breakers was a little slow to trip when I tested it), I used plug-in GFCIs on the first outlet in both daisy chains.

As I was explaining it to my 10 year old son, "you already know that 'water and electricity don't mix.' Now look around you and tell me where there is electricity that isn't close enough to water that you couldn't touch both at the same time..."

Fuel fired heaters are alive and well and used in really cold climates on things like military trucks, by the way. They tend to have multiple safety systems and timed blower runs after shutoff to purge combustion gases.

I believe that since there's little 120 VAC in a trailer that most, if not all, electrical fires are started with the 12 VDC wiring. CGCIs work great to keep you from getting shocked from the 120 VAC system. Not to worry if you're like me and never connected to 120 VAC.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by steelypip

One thing I did in my vintage camper was to put in GFCIs on both circuits. These don't generally save you from fires, but they can do a fine job of saving you from an electrical shock. Planning ahead to arc-fault breakers (which may happen sooner, rather than later, as I noticed that one of my stock breakers was a little slow to trip when I tested it), I used plug-in GFCIs on the first outlet in both daisy chains.

As I was explaining it to my 10 year old son, "you already know that 'water and electricity don't mix.' Now look around you and tell me where there is electricity that isn't close enough to water that you couldn't touch both at the same time..."

Fuel fired heaters are alive and well and used in really cold climates on things like military trucks, by the way. They tend to have multiple safety systems and timed blower runs after shutoff to purge combustion gases.

Siemens and Eaton (Cutler Hammer) do make a combination GFCI/ Arc Fault circuit breaker.
Price is around $50/ each down from over a $100 / each a few years back. GFCI's do not totally eliminate shock hazards . In the OSHA class I taught we would drop a running / energized hair dryer into a plastic bucket filled with water . After 5 or ten minutes the class had to guess if the hair dryer was still running or if the GFCI tripped. If you guessed the GFCI
tripped ,like many did you would be wrong. THE HAIR DRYER WAS STILL RUNNING.

[neparker]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Just because you have a trailer with propane, no one says you have to use it under tow...

That's what I've been thinking. Is there any reason *not* to switch a 3-way fridge to 12 V while traveling?

-- Anne

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

Siemens and Eaton (Cutler Hammer) do make a combination GFCI/ Arc Fault circuit breaker.
Price is around $50/ each down from over a $100 / each a few years back. GFCI's do not totally eliminate shock hazards . In the OSHA class I taught we would drop a running / energized hair dryer into a plastic bucket filled with water . After 5 or ten minutes the class had to guess if the hair dryer was still running or if the GFCI tripped. If you guessed the GFCI
tripped ,like many did you would be wrong. THE HAIR DRYER WAS STILL RUNNING.

That makes sense in a bucket. No ground fault, no circuit interruption. The bucket is insulated from ground. If it was a bathtub, or sink, the drain would act as a path to ground. Then the GFCI would trip.

[steelypip]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

That makes sense in a bucket. No ground fault, no circuit interruption. The bucket is insulated from ground. If it was a bathtub, or sink, the drain would act as a path to ground. Then the GFCI would trip.

Yeah, I read through the scenario and thought - 'sure - no path to ground at all, so how could there be a ground fault?' The point is, of course, particularly if you're connected to shore water, your water system is most likely at ground potential. Which means that any leakage on the neutral could make things unpleasant...

I had the GFCIs sitting on the shelf - they were older two-socket models that I'd removed because they were ivory and all the other sockets in that condo were bright white. So the cost to me was my labor, and I could do it sooner rather than later. The next time I'm somewhere that sells that kind of stuff I'll pick up a couple of Westinghouse pattern Arc fault CBs for the converter/load center.

As for propane risks, I will admit to running the fridge on propane while moving now and again, mostly because I haven't run a dedicated power line on the TV back for power to the trailer. A charging system upgrade is on the list of things to do...

I can't imagine having the water heater lit while driving? Why would you? Mine's all of six gallons, and it doesn't take that long to get hot...

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

That makes sense in a bucket. No ground fault, no circuit interruption. The bucket is insulated from ground. If it was a bathtub, or sink, the drain would act as a path to ground. Then the GFCI would trip.

Not if the water lines and drain piping to the tub or sink is in plastic (Pexs / PVC /ABS ), then the plumbing fixtures provide no path to ground . The same as the plastic bucket. Your trailer
has plastic water lines , a plastic water tank ,pvc/ abs drain / vent piping and is fed by a vinyl water hose. None of which are conductive and water is not an excellent. conductor in itself. Because of the increasing use of plastic for both underground and interior plumbing systems ,the NEC is looking at requiring the bonding / grounding of all metallic plumbing
fixtures. The SS kitchen sink in my Casita is neither grounded or bonded

[Bob Miller]

Hmmmm... Arc fault protectors, in an RV, Me thinks that we are overthinking the complexity (actually lack thereof) in our FGRV's. Pleasel us why this protection is needed.

[RogerDat]

I'm in the shut the propane off for traveling but realistically the propane tank is sitting right behind the fuel tank full of gasoline. While the propane will make a heck of a boom if it goes off, the fuel tank in front of it would be no slouch at providing excitement.

Not sure how flammable the FG shell of a scamp is but with the small size any fire is going to be a close encounter, does make the fire extinguisher range pretty short.

Inline fuse or fusible link on the 12 volt line is good idea, Twice I have seen 12 volt lines glowing red hot. Once was a GMC truck with a 1/2 inch cable going to the starter. That was a little hairy.

Take care of the equipment and maintain it and fire or shock become much less of a concern. Let crud build up or ignore it because it worked last season and you may end up paying a price. Could be a steep price too so don't do that.

[Evergreengirl]

The OP asked if there was a "significant risk" associated with towing a trailer equipped with propane. To that I would answer no, especially in a new trailer equipped with modern appliances. We just make sure everything is turned off before we hit the road. The hot water will stay hot a long time and the fridge will likewise stay cold. Install a good propane/CO detector and turn off the propane at the tank(s) when you're towing. Have your propane lines pressure tested at least once a year. Personally, we would hate to be limited to camping only in campgrounds with electrical hook-ups. We use and appreciate all of our propane appliances.

[steelypip]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

Your trailer
has plastic water lines , a plastic water tank ,pvc/ abs drain / vent piping and is fed by a vinyl water hose. None of which are conductive and water is not an excellent. conductor in itself.

So you only use distilled water in your trailer? Hope you're taking your mineral supplements. For the rest of us, it's probably wiser (and certainly safer) to assume that the water coming from the campground supply is conductive enough to be a ground, and thus a source of danger to someone in contact with a 120 V potential relative to ground...

And for the rest of you wondering, I'll point out that Steve is technically right: pure water itself is a terrible conductor of electricity, in fact its resistance is measured in millions of Ohms per centimeter.

Generally, the only places you find water that pure in a pipe are laboratories and factories. Everywhere else, there will be some mineral content in the water, and that (the dissolved minerals) has some degree of conductivity. You can bet your life on just how conductive it is if you like; I'll install a GFCI.

[floyd]

The effective reason to shut off propane while underway IMO is to prevent leaks in the event that a rough ride might cause a line to crack or a fitting to fail. The gas could then build up inside the trailer until it reached an ignition source like a running appliance.
It has been said that 75% or more travel trailers are towed with the fridge running on propane.
I have seen a few travel trailer fires and often there was not enough left to easily determine the cause.
Of the trailers which I have seen which have survived fire damage, one was clearly caused by a roof A/C while hooked to shore power. Two others were clearly caused by propane fires in the refrigerators while being towed.
I don't travel with the propane tank on because I believe that most travel trailer fires are caused by propane even though the possibility of any fire is remote.

[stevebaz]

I choose to shut off propane when I travel. But I have had issues with propane leakage from used 1 lb bottles of the type used in lanterns. These worry me far more than a shut off trailer. Just no way to properly store these things.

[Glenn Baglo]

I've noticed the same with the butane canisters. Once installed, it seems some slowly leak, even after being completely shut off.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by floyd

........It has been said that 75% or more travel trailers are towed with the fridge running on propane......

Do you think all those folks stop and turn off the propane before getting to the gas station? Raz

[steelypip]

These are all good arguments for not running the fridge in propane mode when towing! So far, for our short trips, having a pre-chilled fridge full of something massive (we have a nice little 2 liter pitcher with locking lid we fill with water) to even out the temperature, we've gotten by with no refrigeration at all during the drive.

Longer term, it's definitely time for power from the TV.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by steelypip

So you only use distilled water in your trailer? Hope you're taking your mineral supplements. For the rest of us, it's probably wiser (and certainly safer) to assume that the water coming from the campground supply is conductive enough to be a ground, and thus a source of danger to someone in contact with a 120 V potential relative to ground...

And for the rest of you wondering, I'll point out that Steve is technically right: pure water itself is a terrible conductor of electricity, in fact its resistance is measured in millions of Ohms per centimeter.

Generally, the only places you find water that pure in a pipe are laboratories and factories. Everywhere else, there will be some mineral content in the water, and that (the dissolved minerals) has some degree of conductivity. You can bet your life on just how conductive it is if you like; I'll install a GFCI.

We used plain old City of St. Paul Mn water ,straight from the tap for our experiment !!
( NOT DISTILLED WATER) I am not saying that GFCI are not effective just that they are not 100% effective. You can still get a shock or be electricuted. by a GFCI protected
circuit . GFCI's are not the total answer to stupidity or the misuse of electricity!
There is a huge difference between an effective & intentional grounding such as a copper wire and a incidental ground such as through water in a hose.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by P. Raz

Do you think all those folks stop and turn off the propane before getting to the gas station? Raz

I do !!

[Civilguy]

I've been interested to read all the responses here, including discussions of the AC and DC electrical systems. The differentiation between propane water heaters and refrigerators was something I hadn’t even considered. After all, we “tear-droppers” generally don’t have all those onboard appliances that folks in their big "luxury-coach" 13-footers do.

I found some additional thoughts on propane on a previous thread here:

http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f55/propane-on-off-while-towing-27348.html

I also found it interesting that the subject of the disposable cylinders has come up. I found 4 of them leaking after removing from the stove this year. This is 4 out of about 10 used. I’ve written to Coleman, with no response yet.

The leakage is very subtle. Is it TMI to say that a little judiciously placed saliva can aid in evaluating the cylinder's seal? I even tried briefly pressing in on the valves with a small object, hoping they would reseat properly. No dice.

I didn’t want to transport the leaking cylinders as I generally pack them back in the trailer where I wouldn’t detect any warning odor while driving. And propane is what they use in the movies to produce so many of those super-duper spectacular Hollywood-special-effect explosions. So in each case, I informed the camp host that I was leaving the cylinder near the picnic table and that a subsequent camper might be able to use them.

In any event, my solution was to buy an 11 lb. refillable cylinder and a five foot adaptor hose. It gives me a little peace of mind and at $0.62 per lb. vs. about $3.00 for a 16.4 oz disposable I expect to recover the cost of the cylinder pretty quickly.

Plus, I'll still get to use it when I move up to a "luxury coach" FGRV.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by P. Raz

Do you think all those folks stop and turn off the propane before getting to the gas station? Raz

Of course I don't think so!