RV Fires While Towing - Propane Risks?

[EllPea in CA]

Good heavens. I've been using those little propane cylinders for many years, most often transporting them in the back of my car. Am DEFINITELY getting rid of those used ones, and I like the idea of moving to a larger, refillable cylinder. Thank you all for this discussion.

LP
(now proven dangerous with LP stuff)

[steelypip]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

We used plain old City of St. Paul Mn water ,straight from the tap for our experiment !!
( NOT DISTILLED WATER) I am not saying that GFCI are not effective just that they are not 100% effective. You can still get a shock or be electricuted. by a GFCI protected
circuit . GFCI's are not the total answer to stupidity or the misuse of electricity!
There is a huge difference between an effective & intentional grounding such as a copper wire and a incidental ground such as through water in a hose.

If you're talking about the bucket experiment, you did say it was a plastic bucket, right? Hair dryer probably has two wires and no ground bond. So there's absolutely no way that it would know there's a ground fault.

That said, yes GFCIs are not perfect. But they're better than just circuit breakers, which is what I had first.

[Civilguy]

Ellpea,

Congratulations on your decision to become a somewhat-less-dangerous member of society!

I actually don’t know how seriously to take the leakage in the portable cylinders; we don’t see cars exploding on the highway every Fourth of July weekend. But, I am a very (very) conservative sort. It also bothers me to pay a premium price for propane that is gradually emptying itself between trips.

I found that the 20-lb cylinders are the most reasonably priced. However, they weigh about 37 lbs when full. I didn't want to be lugging that much weight between the vehicle and the portable stove on the picnic table (remember, I have a teardrop trailer).

Smaller cylinders, including the 11 lb steel one I purchased, are much more expensive than the 20 lb ones. However, mine only weighs about 24 lbs full. A 4.25 lb-capacity steel cylinder is another option, weighing about 15 lbs full. We seem to go through nearly a pound of propane a day, so I thought that size too small.

You can also buy lightweight fiberglass or aluminum cylinders for an additional premium. I was concerned regarding the apparent(?) lack of locations to have fiberglass recertified, something which is periodically required of all portable (DOT-size) cylinders.

Aluminum is a more common option and will shave another 4 or 5 lbs off as compared to steel. I blanched at the additional cost for those. But, they are shiny!

[Johnny M]

A roll of thread sealing tape will last a long time and a little applied on the treads of the propane cylinder will help stop any leaking when attached to a latern or camp stove but won't do much good one the bottle is removed from the appliance unless you have a metal threaded cap to seal with the tape and cap it off....

[Bob Miller]

[QUOTE=Civilguy;536441]Ellpea,




You can also buy lightweight fiberglass or aluminum cylinders for an additional premium. I was concerned regarding the apparent(?) lack of locations to have fiberglass recertified, something which is periodically required of all portable (DOT-size) cylinders.

------------------------------------------------

I think that the fiberglass LP tanks were all recalled.....

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

I think that the fiberglass LP tanks were all recalled.....

One brand was in fact recalled; cylinders made by Lite Cylinder Company.

Viking brand cylinders remain in good standing. They tend to refer to their product as "composite". I expect they wish they could distance themselves from the recall which was imposed on a competitor only.

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by Johnny M

A roll of thread sealing tape will last a long time and a little applied on the treads of the propane cylinder will help stop any leaking when attached to a latern or camp stove but won't do much good one the bottle is removed from the appliance unless you have a metal threaded cap to seal with the tape and cap it off....

Yeah, I started thinking about a shiny threaded brass cap with 1"x20-pitch threads to match the cylinders' thread, then said "ah, to heck with it" and ordered the 11 lb to save on fuel costs.

But, I still might go that route (threaded cap) as I've got several 16.4 oz disposables left. They also work very nicely with the Coleman lantern, where they serve as the base.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by neparker

That's what I've been thinking. Is there any reason *not* to switch a 3-way fridge to 12 V while traveling?

-- Anne

Depending on the make and age of the fridge it may be a serious battery power hog. Many of our vehicles do not have a large enough charge line wire to keep up with recharging the trailers battery to make up for the amount of power the fridge pulls from the battery. Good chance that after only a few hours the fridge will pull your battery down to levels that are to low to be good for its longevity.

I love having a fridge that runs on propane - use it all the time & would not own a fridge without that option. But I do not like to leave any propane running while towing due to safety concerns. The idea of having an open flame and an open propane line running while towing does not make me feel warm and cozy. What happens if the trailer gets hit?

Normally I just make sure the fridge is cooled right down prior to towing and then I put a couple of small freezer packs into it beside the dairy products and meats and don't open it while towing. Or I put a frozen bottle of water into it. Has worked well for many long trips in hot weather without issue.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by steelypip

If you're talking about the bucket experiment, you did say it was a plastic bucket, right? Hair dryer probably has two wires and no ground bond. So there's absolutely no way that it would know there's a ground fault.

That said, yes GFCIs are not perfect. But they're better than just circuit breakers, which is what I had first.

Many appliances and electric tools are "double insulated". That's how they manage to have only two wire and still get UL certification. Ground Fault Interrupters and Double Insulation are designed to only one thing, prevent deadly shocks.

[Bob Miller]

[QUOTE=Carol H;536460] (clip)
The idea of having an open flame and an open propane line running while towing does not make me feel warm and cozy. What happens if the trailer gets hit? [QUOTE]

What happens if you car get's hit and you have a full 24 gallon tank of gas.?
What happens if you have to stop on the I-10 because of a forest fire, and the fire changes directions?

There are a few very low level risks in life that we just have to live with, and, IMHO only, using propane in the refrigerator while towing is one of the smaller, but acceptable, risks.

One can't enjoy life always being in fear of what might happen.

[Bob Miller]

I Googled Fire Danver and I got a link to some "Fire Dancers" guaranteed to light up any party. But I also found this listing for Fire Dancer and also Little Red Fire Pit. But they are a bit $$$$$:


http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_7kg78y5x4m_b


My Bad Again, wrong thread.... LOL

[Civilguy]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

My Bad Again, wrong thread.... LOL

Bob,

You did have me wondering there. But, hey, at least this is a "fire" thread!

[Byron Kinnaman]

[QUOTE=Bob Miller;536474][QUOTE=Carol H;536460] (clip)
The idea of having an open flame and an open propane line running while towing does not make me feel warm and cozy. What happens if the trailer gets hit?

What happens if you car get's hit and you have a full 24 gallon tank of gas.?
What happens if you have to stop on the I-10 because of a forest fire, and the fire changes directions?

There are a few very low level risks in life that we just have to live with, and, IMHO only, using propane in the refrigerator while towing is one of the smaller, but acceptable, risks.

One can't enjoy life always being in fear of what might happen.

Some thing we do because it take very little effort and provides a bit more safety. Wearing a seat belt for one, I don't expect to get into wreck, but I wear my seat belt.
I-10 grass fire ... what happens if your propane take is on and hose melts?
What happens if you're texting while driving? We can play what if all day, but in the end it takes so little to be safer by turning off the propane while traveling. How much safer, maybe not much, but enough to be worth the small amount of effort.

[Carol H]

[QUOTE=Bob Miller;536474][QUOTE=Carol H;536460] (clip)
The idea of having an open flame and an open propane line running while towing does not make me feel warm and cozy. What happens if the trailer gets hit?

What happens if you car get's hit and you have a full 24 gallon tank of gas.?
What happens if you have to stop on the I-10 because of a forest fire, and the fire changes directions?

There are a few very low level risks in life that we just have to live with, and, IMHO only, using propane in the refrigerator while towing is one of the smaller, but acceptable, risks.

One can't enjoy life always being in fear of what might happen.

Your correct on the above Bob and while I agree one can not predict what mother nature is going to throw your way in the case of getting trapped on the highway in the event of a wildfire.

But I can't agree in regards to known dangers of towing with an open fuel source and open flame that goes with it and the known lack of protection of such systems on most of our small trailers. Unlike a cars gas tank there is nothing protecting the trailers propane tank from taking a direct hit and nothing but a very thin vent on the side of the trailer protecting the back of the fridge and fuel lines and the open flame. Not to mention I don't think cars have an open flame feeding off the gas line.

How many pictures have you seen of trailers ending up on the their sides in the event of an accident or a bad sway incident? Don't think the odds of the trailer being hit on the side while traveling down the highway are high? I don't know what your experience has been but I have had two close calls just in the last 12 months.

Funny enough while heading home from the Bandon Meet the other day I noted that one can not use the Express lanes through Seattle if one has an open propane system. So apparently I am not the only one who thinks driving with an open propane systems can be dangerous.

Nope I don't live in fear of what I can not predict but I do live in fear of what I can predict.

[Civilguy]

I should head this post "Eating Humble Pie" as it appears that I have posted some incorrect information. I reported in this thread that I'd found four 16.4 oz. disposable cylinders leaking after removing them from appliances this year.

Long story short, I contacted Coleman who referred me to Worthington, the company who makes the disposable cylinders sold under the Coleman brand (among many other brands in fact). After some discussions with Worthington's customer-service folks, I tested my two remaining 16.4 ounce cylinders. The result was that I found my "saliva test" can be very misleading. It tends to bubble-up as I vary the pressure on my thumb. In contrast, I swiped some soapy water across the opening which enabled me to completely remove my thumb from the cylinder. The soap film did not move at all. As a result, I now strongly suspect that none of my four disposable cylinders was actually ever leaking.

I also received a personal message from another forum member expressing concerns about the idea of using Teflon tape on the cylinder threads. Since it appears that I'd already goofed up regarding the leaking cylinders, I didn't want to jump into that issue without some further confirmation. I called Marshall Excelsior this morning. Marshall Excelsior manufactures products for the LPG industry. They transferred me to a gentlemen in their technical department.

This gentleman confirmed that the primary operating seal in a disposable propane cylinder is provided by an O-ring inside the opening where you make the connection. There is a gasket in the female appliance fitting that is intended to provide a secondary seal. And finally, he confirmed that the threads on the disposable cylinders are not tapered, and are not intended to provide a seal.

The fine-pitch threads on disposable cylinders are only intended to draw the two pieces together and to keep them joined while in service. A leaky connection would indicate that both the O-ring and the secondary gasket are not sealing properly.

To emphasize, adding Teflon tape to the threads on a disposable cylinder is not appropriate as the 1"-20-pitch threads on the disposable cylinders cannot be tightened to compress the Teflon tape and seal the joint in the same way that tapered pipe threads could.

This also made it clear to me how important it is to keep the appliance fittings and cylinder connections clean as the primary seal is provided by an O-ring inside the neck of the cylinder.

Marshall Excelsior makes a cap with a gasket; part No. ME483. It appears to be readily available. I may buy a couple for use with disposable cylinders just because I am a kind of conservative kind of guy.

And also a humbled one.

[RogerDat]

Well Civilguy it was really good of you to post the information back here, as well as providing useful information you are owning mistaken information which I always consider classy.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by Civilguy

I should head this post "Eating Humble Pie" as it appears that I have posted some incorrect information. I reported in this thread that I'd found four 16.4 oz. disposable cylinders leaking after removing them from appliances this year.

Long story short, I contacted Coleman who referred me to Worthington, the company who makes the disposable cylinders sold under the Coleman brand (among many other brands in fact). After some discussions with Worthington's customer-service folks, I tested my two remaining 16.4 ounce cylinders. The result was that I found my "saliva test" can be very misleading. It tends to bubble-up as I vary the pressure on my thumb. In contrast, I swiped some soapy water across the opening which enabled me to completely remove my thumb from the cylinder. The soap film did not move at all. As a result, I now strongly suspect that none of my four disposable cylinders was actually ever leaking.

I also received a personal message from another forum member expressing concerns about the idea of using Teflon tape on the cylinder threads. Since it appears that I'd already goofed up regarding the leaking cylinders, I didn't want to jump into that issue without some further confirmation. I called Marshall Excelsior this morning. Marshall Excelsior manufactures products for the LPG industry. They transferred me to a gentlemen in their technical department.

This gentleman confirmed that the primary operating seal in a disposable propane cylinder is provided by an O-ring inside the opening where you make the connection. There is a gasket in the female appliance fitting that is intended to provide a secondary seal. And finally, he confirmed that the threads on the disposable cylinders are not tapered, and are not intended to provide a seal.

The fine-pitch threads on disposable cylinders are only intended to draw the two pieces together and to keep them joined while in service. A leaky connection would indicate that both the O-ring and the secondary gasket are not sealing properly.

To emphasize, adding Teflon tape to the threads on a disposable cylinder is not appropriate as the 1"-20-pitch threads on the disposable cylinders cannot be tightened to compress the Teflon tape and seal the joint in the same way that tapered pipe threads could.

This also made it clear to me how important it is to keep the appliance fittings and cylinder connections clean as the primary seal is provided by an O-ring inside the neck of the cylinder.

Marshall Excelsior makes a cap with a gasket; part No. ME483. It appears to be readily available. I may buy a couple for use with disposable cylinders just because I am a kind of conservative kind of guy.

And also a humbled one.

Good post. Raz

[Darral T.]

Wow Johnny...that's REAL LIFE statistics and experience. Thanks for sharing! I dont think most see the potential hazard associated with the propane FLOWING if you're in an accident...especially where there's a fire. This is just me, but I simply will NOT do it!

[Glenn Baglo]

Propane tanks these days have a safety valve that shuts down if it detects a sudden flow increase. That's why you are supposed to open the tank slowly so it doesn't shut down when it isn't meant to.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

It's knda like (the) corollary to the comment: 'We all dig our own holes",
which is
"As long as they don't dig them where others can fall into them" LOLOLOL

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

There are a few very low level risks in life that we just have to live with, and, IMHO only, using propane in the refrigerator while towing is one of the smaller, but acceptable, risks.

One can't enjoy life always being in fear of what might happen.

We agree (I think?? ) Raz