Stove problem in snow

[Burroman]

Been chasing this issue for a few years.
Original propane stove works great at temps.mid 40’s and up, but colder temps 20’s to high 30’s it struggles and won’t be lit.
Tank is full, Weighed it, changed regulators, blew out the lines and manometer tests normal pressure at home and higher temps.
Last week camping in the snow with temps slightly below freezing it worked fine the first day, but slowly diminished, then would not light.
When it did it went out as soon as a tea pot was put over the burner.
Tried different propane suppliers, thinking I was getting watered propane or too high a butane mix,as well as 3 different tanks.
Just put a new regulator on hoping it would solve it, but same story when it gets cold.
I think it should be good down to 0 F , at least.
Thinking my regulator(s) have been freezing up, but haven’t tried the hot water remedy over the regulator. Reg. Vent is pointed down.
Any ideas would be welcomed!
Larry

[ehoepner]

This information is from the web site Hunker.com

Liquid propane and water act similarly when temperature drops, but their boiling points differ. At sea level, propane begins to boil at a temperature of -44 degrees Fahrenheit and produces propane vapor, while water boils at 212 degrees F and produces water vapor. As the temperature drops below 212 degrees F, water stays in liquid form, it doesn't change to a vapor. Similarly, as the temperature outside the propane tank drops and approaches -44 degrees F, less propane boils inside the storage tank producing less vapor and a lower pressure.

Critical Temperature
As the pressure inside the propane tank drops, it eventually becomes too low to light a furnace or other appliance. At -44 degrees F or lower, propane stays as a liquid, there is little vapor and propane appliances won't function properly. Therefore, for appliances to work correctly, a propane tank must usually be kept in an area with a temperature greater than -44 degrees F.

Cold Temperatures
In climates where the temperature may drop to well below 0, small, insulated frame shelters house propane tanks. Applying a heat tape specifically designed for propane tanks may keep the tank above -44 degrees. Sometimes propane tanks are buried to protect them from cold temperatures.

[Burroman]

Just back from a trip to high Mountains, and desert.
9000’, and plenty cold- down to below freezing.
Noticed this about the propane stove: it lights, but flame is about 80% around the burner.
If I put a pot over the burner, it goes out, but if I support the pot an inch or less over the burner it works.
I put a 1/2” perforated grill over the burner, and the pot on that and it works fine.
After a few minutes I can remove the spacer grill and put the pot directly on the burner and it burns just fine.
I’m thinking I have an abnormally high percentage of butane in the mix, and as the liquid gas vaporizes, and cools the tank, the butane stays in liquid form and only the propane vaporizes and the stove works fine.
I’m going to fill another tank at a trailer park here in the mountains, other tank was just filled at a sea level market.
At least I got the stove to perform.
Any other ideas?
Thanks,
Larry

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by Burroman

I’m thinking I have an abnormally high percentage of butane in the mix, and as the liquid gas vaporizes, and cools the tank, the butane stays in liquid form and only the propane vaporizes and the stove works fine.

Why is there butane in your propane? Butane vaporizes at 30.2 F.

[Burroman]

Don’t know, but people have said LPG can vary with % of propane and butane.
USA is supposed to hav 100% propane, but others have said in warmer areas don’t be so sure.
I have checked everything else, manometer pressure, gas lines, 3 different regulators, but can’t explain the stoves behavior.
Just a guess,

[Raz]

I cook with propane. The tank sits outside, sometimes in temperatures well below zero and I've never had a problem. When the tank is filled it typically takes 10 gallons indicating it's more than half full prior to filling. Do you experience the same problem with a full tank? Bearing in mind it was the 70's, I recall the ideal gas law PV=NRT. Might apply here?

[AC0GV]

Originally Posted by Burroman

Been chasing this issue for a few years.
Original propane stove works great at temps.mid 40’s and up, but colder temps 20’s to high 30’s it struggles and won’t be lit.
Tank is full, Weighed it, changed regulators, blew out the lines and manometer tests normal pressure at home and higher temps.

When comparing propane and butane, the most important differences come down to the boiling point of the gases. Propane has a boiling temperature of -42°C, whilst butane has a higher boiling point at -2°C.
This means that propane will continue to vaporize and turn to gas in colder climates, which is perfect for the cold winters we get here in Ontario and for outdoor use. When stored as a liquid in a tank, propane also exerts a greater pressure than butane at the same temperature. This makes it more suitable for exterior storage and use. (Information copied from Budget Propane Corporation, Gravenhurst, Ontario)

[Dan Meyer]

Originally Posted by Burroman

Just back from a trip to high Mountains, and desert.
9000’, >snip<

I would guess you don't have any problem except trying to run your stove at high altitude. How well does it work at lower (5000 feet or less) altitudes?



--Dan Meyer

[Burroman]

I have a similar problem at lower altitude, as long as it’s cold- California cold, not Canada cold.
20- 30F and it gives me problems.
Doesn’t matter if it’s a full tank or not.
I just filled a tank from a mountain supply place that claims 100% propane.
Will be in Yosemite next month with a full “mountain propane” tank, and will report back.
It does well at low altitude in warmer temps. 45F and up.
At least I get it to work with the perforated plate for 4-5 minutes.
Does it make sense that IF there is a substantial % of butane it might behave like this?
I know when lpg changes state, Liquid to Gas, a cooling effect happens at the tank, and I’m wondering, since butane has a lower vapor pressure the cooling might further prevent it from vaporizing, leaving a higher % of propane.
????

[TZBrown]

When you changed the regulator did you notice any oily residue in the lines.

I suspect over time the lines have accumulated a slight amount of oil and it may be lowering the fuel flow.

I would find the low point propane connection and take it apart and see if any residue is inside. Even though you have blown them out, a solvent soak may be the answer, then clean and dry with air again.

Cleaning the orifice at the stove burner valve with solvent may point out any contamination there.

[Burroman]

All good tips, but tried all that.
I have the new tank full of propane obtained at a mountain dispenser.
Will try it.
Come Tom think of it I’ve never had problems with my BBQ at my mountain cabin, even in dead of winter. Propane came from up here.
Interesting.

[Burroman]

Better title, because it doesn’t have to be in the snow!
I’m looking forward to taking it up to Yosemite this Xmas with the new, “Mt Propane” tank.
Just doesn’t get cold enough on central coastal California to test it.
I’m just happy I discovered a “work around” with the perforated spacer. It’s actually one of those old Coleman toaster plates with the arms folded down.
I will report back.
Thanks for all the input.

[Burroman]

Well, so much snow and rain in Yosemite the roads were closed so didn’t get to test the “ new propane”.
Lots of snow!
Hope to get to Death Valley soon , and will test it then.

[Burroman]

Well, sort of give up and will just use the “work around”
Stove acting the same. 3 rd different propane fill, last one in a mountain community, so I think it’s NOT the propane mixture.
Stove starts out sputtering with incomplete flame . Holding the kettle a few inches above the flame and it evens out, put the kettle down on the grate and only about 80% of it is in flame. Use a spacer like my toaster grill and it works OK- so that’s what I did. After a few minutes it seem to work fine, without the spacer.
Could be normal for this old stove.
Back to square one of Checking pressure with my manometer, checking hoses for obstructions and adjusting regulator.
At least I have a work around.
Wasn’t even that cold- hi 30’s to low 40’s.

[Burroman]

Same problem, not even that cold, and low altitude.
A moist, cool(low 40’s), and stove wouldn’t stay lit at all.
Later as it warmed a bit and dried out it was fine.
Thinking back, I should have poured warm water over the regulator( as I have a back up stove, which I used)
It’s a new regulator, but it is now my number one suspect.
Manometer pressure checks out at home, but stove is working fine, so it would.
Somehow the pressure is dropping when it’s cool or cold.
Bit of a challenge.

[TZBrown]

I would suspect the regulator as well

As I said before though, I would do a complete propane line flush into a clean rag with acetone, followed by an air pressure purge. Just to confirm no contamination.

Is there a regulator at your cooktop? There is one, not far from the inlet pipe port on mine

[Burroman]

Thanks for the line purge advice.
I will do that.
At least I’ve eliminated altitude and cold snowy wether as a culprit!

[Vtec]

Are you using a refillable propane tank or throw away? This comes up so often I have posted a video of this on Facebook many times. You are snapping shut the tank safety valve by turning on too fast. I highly suspect this is your problem, shut off, wait for 30 seconds or so, turn on very slowly. I wish I could post the video but not allowed so found this link instead.
https://www.rvrepairclub.com/video/o...e-tank-007962/

Over and over and over I hear everyone blaming freezing temps, the regulator, etc. Often it is nothing more than a simple valve doing its job and people not knowing what is going on. I have repeatedly used propane in well below zero temps with no problems whatsoever. Over and over I have had friends and relatives go refill a full propane tank or even throw away a perfectly good gas grill because it stopped throwing off heat because a trickle of gas still comes out. This issue comes up frequently.

[Burroman]

Thanks for the tip.
I’m using the 20lb. Refillable bulk tank with the faucet-type valve.
Been pretty conscious of opening it slowly, but not that conscious!
I’ll be super Slooow the next time.
Put my older regulator back on and it seems to be working fine.
Noticed the news regulator had the vent turned up, and maybe water got in it.
Will purge the lines, carry a spare regulator with me on next trip!

[Vtec]

Yes Burroman give it a try. Long hose lines and a full tank with higher internal pressure makes it more likely to happen. In my personal video you can hear it snap shut really well and also reset when gas gets turned off. I highly suspect you will never have trouble anymore. What throws many off is that gas will still flow a little but very weakly, which is exact symptom you mentioned.