Surf-side window rebuild - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:29 PM   #21
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Name: Scott
Trailer: Triple E Surf*Side
British Columbia
Posts: 25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zac w. View Post
Actually all except one is RH ..... the rear split window Left side needs a left crank. Please post if you find a link for one. Also a part number for the window glass gasket would be great. I’ve already tried two different types but both were wrong.
Share as much specific information as you can, it will help all of us and everyone in the future. Thanks again Garry for the link to the Rh cranks!
Zac
Hi Lizbun

Not sure if you are still looking for the information, but I am dealing with the same issue. The part number for the Strybuc operator right hand is 1718c, and left hand appears to be 1719c. Both are available on Amazon.ca. I have not gotten hands on with either yet, but will be shortly as I need 4 right and 1 left for our Surfside.

Further research has found both of these parts available from www.rvsuperstorecanada.ca for substantially less than Amazon.ca.
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:36 PM   #22
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Window Screw Cover

Hi all, me again...

With the help of the great info here, and a bit of digging, I have (hopefully) assembled a parts list for restoring Chuckwagons windows. I have just one more thing that I am trying to find...

Does anyone have a line on the black screw cover plastic that is used on the 1977'ish Surf Sides? I have my doubts that mine will come out intact once the removed to pull the windows.

Thanks
Scott
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Old 05-30-2020, 05:30 AM   #23
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Name: bill
Trailer: 2013 Escape 19; 1977 Trillium 1300
The Mountains of North Carolina
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Those are likely Hehr screw covers. Lots of sources for them. I bought mine at walmart.com.

Don't pay over about $8 US each for 8 footers. Prices are all over the place.
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:04 PM   #24
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Name: Scott
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Thanks Bill for the reply. Unfortunately these are a bit different than those. I am hoping someone has a line on them...

Thanks all
Scott
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:08 AM   #25
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Name: Zac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sticks View Post
Thanks Bill for the reply. Unfortunately these are a bit different than those. I am hoping someone has a line on them...

Thanks all
Scott
Hi Scott,
I'm afraid I'm in the same boat as you I haven't been able to find anything that matches.... I've ordered some flexible plastic trim last week. I will post if it works and how it looks. If you find any please let me know!
Zac
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Old 06-06-2020, 02:24 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zac w. View Post
Hi Scott,
I'm afraid I'm in the same boat as you I haven't been able to find anything that matches.... I've ordered some flexible plastic trim last week. I will post if it works and how it looks. If you find any please let me know!
Zac
Hi Zac

So far no luck. I would appreciate seeing what you come up with. Most of mine is intact, but one section is broken and missing a chunk. Worst case, I will use the front window strips as donor material and then do it different than original.

Thanks!!
Scott
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Old 06-13-2020, 04:13 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zac w. View Post
Ok now that I have 2 windows done Iíve learned a few things id like to share

2) order the correct window cranks if you can find them (still looks like out of stock) the ones I got I had to modify them, though they feel strong... I donít think itís worth it if you can get the original ones.... hereís a picture
Zac

I like how you shimmed out the crank device. I went another way, and made an extension for the tube.


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Old 09-20-2020, 07:49 PM   #28
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A little update...

Greetings all

So a little update... Window one (passenger side - side) has been out and on the bench for a few days. I have been able to line up the J-moulding and the large Header seal from Vintage Trailer, and after taking the window out and disassembling, I found I have no choice but to unmount the glass and install new U-channel gasket. I was also able to get the drive units from a couple of places, and they are direct replacement, even utilizing the original screw holes.

After 6 million measurements, I was able to find on Amazon a channel gasket that should work , Prime-line P-7732 for a very reasonable price. I will report on that when it arrives later this week. Just under $45 CAD for 200'.

The original U-channel had shrunk and gone brittle, so there was a 2-3 inch gap at the bottom of each window with no seal. So, as much as I would rather have a root canal without Novocain, the glass is coming out.

I have buffed the aluminum on a bench grinder and it is looking shiny and sort of new. Parts are dry fit and so far everything seems to be as it should. I will decide if I am going to replace the glass with new tempered stuff this week, or more likely I will have the decision made for me as I try to put it back in the frame.

Then I need to get some material to make new inside frames and get it all mastic putty taped and screwed back in.

Once I have U-channel seal, and get it all back together I will do up a picture or two. Then it is off to the next window.

One sidenote, the nice thing about working on a 43 year old trailer is when you go to pull windows, the putty tape isn't stuck to anything so it comes right off. The not so nice thing is successive owners have siliconed etc the living hell out of the windows to (try to) keep them from leaking, so once out there is a lot of clean up to do.

Cheers
Scott
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:11 PM   #29
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Name: Rufus
Trailer: Surfside TM14
Illinois
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Scott


> crank mechanisms
Please post the sources if you will. I'm going to need 4 or 5 of them.


> frames
I did left and right sides in July. I'll try to get the pics on my PC and ul a few. Here is a very long review of what I did and why.



There are a couple decisions:


- the thickness of the frame. The oem is 1"+ a little. That thickness provides plenty of overlap to support the bottom of the rear locker and the door when it opens will rest on small blocks screwed to the frame. However, what I had to hand was some extra hickory flooring, 3/4" and I used that. It provided enough overlap to support the locker and by adding a 3/8" space under the blocks supporting the door (when it opened) those worked fine. The hickory is much better then the ply at holding fasteners, so shorter screws are no problem. It's seemed stiff enough to stay straight and, with the windows installed, provide the needed strength to that side of the trailer. I used a lap joint glued with epoxy and coated the inside of the frame with Cetol before installing. If I had 8/4 or 4/4 stock I could get the material out of I would have gone full width. More strength, more margin to hold up the rear locker. But I think the 1"+ ply was the result of a desire to use all one type of material everywhere in the trailer. It may also have just been a particularly good buy and what the make had on hand when the trailer was made.



- If desired, you might consider installing the frames and windows separately. That's what I did because I did not want to dance around trying to get both inside and outside lined up at once. I glued the frames to the interior GRP wall of the trailer around the window. I made the frame, then temporarily clamped it in place and marked the edges on the ensolite (using something that will not show or can be wiped off later). Then cut the ensolite along (but not on!) those marks, staying 5/16-3/8" inside the marks so the frame will overlap the ensolite when installed. Pull off the cut strips and scrape with a putty knife. Then take a grinder with a wire cup (straight wire is fine, don't need twisted) and clean the GRP around the window where glue is applied. Clean up corners with 40grit sand paper block or maybe a sharp knife. Using a table saw (or router if you prefer) and rabbet the outside edge of the frame to overlap the ensolite where you cut it without capturing it. I think I recall this only matters on the top and bottom because of the way the wall is shaped but I did it all around. IIRC, the rabbet was 3/16" deep (1/8" or 5/32 would likely be fine - the ensolite really isn't very thick) and 3/8" wide. I wanted to be able to remove and replace the wall covering and be able to tuck it back under the frame w/out a fight. I used a premium construction adhesive, about $12 cartridge, 3/4 cartridge per window with a lot of squeeze out. I wanted plenty of squeeze out to make sure the glue went everywhere, even if the surface was not very smooth.


Gluing the frames on this way takes more time but it makes it _much_ easier to deal with installing the window. Those interior frames won't come off easily but with the glue filling everything and a good coat of Cetol, they should be able to take some water and do the job w/out deteriorating. That's the plan, anyway.



When making the frames:


Use measurements from the inside of the frame (the outside is different - more below). Your then add 3/16-1/4" to get the inside dimensions of the interior frame. This will allow you to make the frame as tight as possible which might be important. On my trailer, the "rough opening" they cut in the GRP for the windows was more than generous and the screws mounting the window sometimes missed the GRP completely. Making the frames fit tightly ensures that your fastening screws have a safe margin of wood to grab.


The outside measurements of the window are different because they are well designed: The bottom aluminum jam has a 13 to 15D. slope outwards and drain holes to direct the inevitable water to the outside, not the inside, of the trailer. I dealt with this by first making the interior frames to fit the inside aluminum dimensions, then setting the table saw to 15D. cranking the blade full up (reduces the undercut at beginning and end which you must finish with a hand saw) setting the fence and lowering the completed frame onto the spinning blade to make the bevel cut. This needs care, but the work is not large and it could be characterized, I think, as "intermediate" table saw work.


Because of the shape molded into the GRP at the front and rear of the windows, the inside frame stands proud of the wall at the front and back. I guess you could saw a tapered spline to fill this but I don't think it's too noticeable (I didn't notice it on the originals).


Gluing the frame on first requires about 20 clamps each each window but you can do one at a time. Any wood worker knows that clamps are the most expensive thing in the shop... But you can make effective clamps from 1x2. Cut 40 10" sticks; in each, drill a hole in the center and about 3/4" from one end (those holes _gotta_ be in the same place on each and every piece); using 40 1/4" x 5" bolts, 80 nuts and washers, each pair of sticks make a clamp. I've done this when working on boats where we needed 40-50 clamps at once. You size them to fit the job. If you buy clamps, dry fit the new frame with one of the "cauls" described below to make your your clamp is big enough.



To help ensure a good tight, flat, straight joint It's good to use "cauls" to support the glue joint: To make them take a 2x4 and cut it to lengths to fit around half the outside of the window opening, then rip the 2x pieces in half to get pieces to go round the other half of the window. Use these pieces around the _outside_ of the window opening when gluing. You want to squeeze the GRP shell between two nice flat surfaces - the frame and the pieces of 2x - to form the best joint and keep things in line. This distributes the force at the clamping points. After drying, loosen the clamps and take the cauls and clamps across to use on the other side.


I think an excellent job could be done w/out gluing the frames inside and w/out messing with the ensolite. However, I worked as a plumber for 30 years and I have _great_ respect for water. I felt that the glue could give the interior frame a much better chance of dealing with water because if the glue joint is good it has a very good chance of prevent _any_ water from getting behind the interior frames. Water that the window lets in will have to flow over the "outside" of the interior frame, which has air circulating around it and can dry quickly. The exposed surface of the frame can also be coated with good stuff like Cetol which will make it almost impervious to water - provided you're ok with the kind of orangie color of Cetol, of course. If not, there are many other good coatings. I don't coat the glue surface of the wood frame because I want to give the glue the best chance of a perfect long lasting strong join.


Making the frames is a wood working project. For most of us, to do it timely this means some real tools. I know a couple Japanese style carpenters that can do a job like this in a gravel parking lot using nothing but what they bring in a gym bag. No me. Table saw, chop saw, belt sander, maybe a drill press. And some experience with them. Just sayin'. Lap joints are not hard when you've done them before, but if you have not, add the learning curve to your time table. Speaking of tables, it _really_ helps to have a nice big clean assembly table - like a hollow core door on saw horses high enough to be easy to work at. 40" comes to mind...



A possible alternative to lap joints for the frame is pocket screws. In that case I would definitely make an effort to get material of full thickness. Pocket screws are something that have received rave reviews from many carpenters since they were introduced 15-20 years ago. They can be use with/without glue, but I'd definitely use glue to try to keep water out of the joint. I used laps because I think they should be stronger and that trailer may be doing a lot of flexing and twisting while I'm bouncing down the road. As I said somewhere else, Iti looks to me like _everything_ in these trailers in potentially structural, including the window frames.


Cheers,
Rufus
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:52 PM   #30
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Name: Scott
Trailer: Triple E Surf*Side
British Columbia
Posts: 25
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Hi Rufus

Thanks for the info. I got the 4 right hand 1718's from Amazon.ca, and the left I believe from Vintage Trailer, but I'd have to dig a bit to find that to make sure.

Sounds like you have the skills and equip to do a pretty impressive job. I am likely going to stick with pretty much what the factory did, it held for 43 years, so should be ok for a few more. I'm am administrator for a construction department in film and TV production, and my Pop was a contractor and set building carpenter, so I have access to all the tools and hardware should I need. I wouldn't ever claim to be a carpenter, but I have a good working knowledge. I will probably go with a high grade 3/4" Baltic birch plywood, the factory on this one was 3/4 " ply and we use a lot of Baltic in the shop and it is really nice when stained, and holds up very well.

Thanks for the reply, it is always great to see how others attack the problems work these old girls.

Happy projecting!
Scott
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:08 PM   #31
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Name: Rufus
Trailer: Surfside TM14
Illinois
Posts: 23
Scott



> 1718s from Amazon
Thx. I'll ck the forums a bit, but do you recall if you posted a pic of the crank anywhere? I'll see if I can find one of mine and post it here along with a few of my interior frame replacement. Just want to take a gander and see if they look in the same ballpark before ordering.



> 3/4 BB ply


Sounds like the materials varied some over the years. To be expected. I was some surprised to find the ply was 1"+ on mine, but can't argue with the tape measure forever. <g>


I don't know if the windows brand is the same, but I was pretty impressed with mine. Good functional very nice big opening still pretty much keeping things dry after 50 years. Sloped bottom sill with good drainage. Damn expensive today, I suspect.



My glass also has the 3" gap in glazing at the bottoms. I'm going to see if I can find a window shop that will replace the glazing rubber. I'll ask them to put the joint at the top this time! IIRC, the glass assemblies come off the hinge brackets w/out problem.



Wherever I removed a fastener I replaced it with stainless steel. I'm sure the SS at HomeDepot is not NASA quality, but it suspect it's better than galvanized hardware. SS is used _always_ on boats when connecting to aluminum; sometimes with anti-seize compound.


I am going to look into quick effective ways to secure the bottom of the bottom window sash (the frame around the glass) where it closes on the sill. When traveling there is a lot of jiggling around and I would like to support the window in a tight solid closed position. I almost had a tragedy because one of the bottom sash worked open a bit and thus had no support from the frame to protect it against the forces when bouncing down the road. I looked out with smug pride to appraise my rig while enjoying a coffee house and...!!! The bottom sash was hanging down at an angle, supported only at one end. A few more bounces and the other hinge bracket would have broken and then no more glass! Some previous owner has drilled screw holes through the outside frame on the sides at the bottom; these accept #8 screws which can tighten down against the bottom side of the "sash" holding it closed solid. But I had failed to realize they were kinda necessary - figured a few miles to the next camp wouldn't matter. Bad guess. The screws seem to work ok, but repeated use looks to enlarge the hole in the frame and tightening too much may bow the bottom of the sash, squeezing it horzontally from both directions. The screws need a tool to use and may be subject to loss. So noodling on a "better way".


Sounds like you're the guy to really give your trailer the TLC they all deserve. Best luck.




Rufus
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:42 PM   #32
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Name: Rufus
Trailer: Surfside TM14
Illinois
Posts: 23
Here are some pics of my interior frame replacement.


The last shot is upwards from below the window and shows how the sash can work it's way open slightly. The first one shows the angle of the lower window sill. The clamps are shown from the outside where they compress the caul against the GRP shell to spread the pressure and keep it straight; the new frame is on the inside of the GRP and the clamps bear directly on it. If you use softer wood you may want to place protective spacers between the clamps and the frame.


Rufus
Attached Thumbnails
resized_trlr_SurfSide_wndw_exterior_flange-bot-sill-angle.jpg   resized_trlr_SurfSide_wndw_exterior_ clamps-caul.jpg  

resized_trlr_SurfSide_wndw_exterior_clamps-caul_2_squeeze-out.jpg   resized_trlr_SurfSide_ wndw_bottom-sill-from-below.jpg  

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Old 09-22-2020, 01:17 PM   #33
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Name: Scott
Trailer: Triple E Surf*Side
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Hey there

As requested, the first picture is of the old and new (bottom and top respectively) operators.

Then there is a picture of he operator in place, units are just temporarily dry fit at this point.

Then there is a shot of the dry fit frame in place (shiny) and last a picture of the garden that you can grow in the gap where the U-gasket has shrunk

I agree completely with using stainless fasteners on the exterior fittings and will be doing so. I will also move the seam in the u-gasket to the top of the frame, as well, putting it where they did makes NO sense at all - unless you are trying to grow things.

Cheers
Scott
Attached Thumbnails
20200921_124338_compress29.jpg   20200921_124743_HDR_compress94.jpg  

20200921_120113_compress91.jpg   20200921_124756_compress63.jpg  

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Old 09-22-2020, 07:15 PM   #34
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Name: Rufus
Trailer: Surfside TM14
Illinois
Posts: 23
Scott


Thanks for the confirmation on the crank mechanism. Luvvvly! I'm getting some stat.


Yeah, SHINY! Wow.



Although you probably combed through their site already, JIC I'll mention that I _think_ I saw screw cover material sold by the foot on VintageTrailer. IIRC it's 1" stuff and I remember checking the edges and deciding it would work. But since mine is holding ok at the moment I just "held that thought". That was back in July.




Cheers,
Rufus
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:26 PM   #35
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Name: Rufus
Trailer: Surfside TM14
Illinois
Posts: 23
Looks like you have a few spots where the gel "popped". Eg. upper left corner of your dry fit. Mines got an assortment, some around the windows, door and on the front from rocks. I think (the trailer with it's pieces and materials is in storage at the moment so I have to go by my memory, such as it is...) I found some off-white Rustoleum at HomeDepot that matched the topsides fairly well. The bottom match is TBA. I haven't checked yet, but word in the car net is that local paint shops will match a sample, mix a half pint or a large spray can for $40. Also there are outfits online that will do the same - problem is they work off the color codes found on a car's door frame. Not sure about getting them a sample to match.


As I recall from my less than stellar detailing back 40 years ago, "close" is good enough for all practical purposes if the spot is less than nickle sized. Larger than that and you gotta use the "20' rule". <g>


Rufus
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:46 AM   #36
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Name: Scott
Trailer: Triple E Surf*Side
British Columbia
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Yes, that is one of two problem spots where rock chips have taken a toll on the fibreglass. Unfortunately that spot has been 'filled' with blue silicone (assuming a gasket maker) and then covered with black polyurethane sealant.

I am in coversation with my fibreglass people, but basically I have to manually remove all the material I can, then dremel time - get back down to clean FG without drilling thru it (hopefully), then fill with resin and chop, then manually gel coat over, sand and polish. I also have a bunch of minor gel coat stress cracks to dremel out and fill.

I am not super concerned about colour match, as we will be painting the trailer to match the van that will be pulling it once I have that restoration done. I do have a yellow tint for the gel coat for the bottom that is pretty close, and will just go neutral gel coat for the top.

Cheers
Scott
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Old 09-23-2020, 02:24 PM   #37
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Name: Scott
Trailer: Triple E Surf*Side
British Columbia
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So, a minor side trip back to a previous comment...

Rufus mentioned using stainless fasteners for anything outside the trailer, something I concur with whole heartedly. But why you ask? (or does anybody, really ask that?)

I just had a moment to pull a door hinge screw out on the trailer... Here is what 43 years of being stuck into a door frame will do to your basic non-stainless fastener.

Now I will set about cutting into the frame to see how badly the backing wood is rotten because the hinges were (obviously) not sealed from water ingress to the screw holes.

Cheers
Scott
Attached Thumbnails
Door Hinge Screw.jpg  
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Old 09-26-2020, 07:47 AM   #38
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Name: Andrew
Trailer: 1975 Surfside (not Triple E)
British Columbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sticks View Post
Greetings all

So a little update... Window one (passenger side - side) has been out and on the bench for a few days. I have been able to line up the J-moulding and the large Header seal from Vintage Trailer, and after taking the window out and disassembling, I found I have no choice but to unmount the glass and install new U-channel gasket. I was also able to get the drive units from a couple of places, and they are direct replacement, even utilizing the original screw holes.

After 6 million measurements, I was able to find on Amazon a channel gasket that should work , Prime-line P-7732 for a very reasonable price. I will report on that when it arrives later this week. Just under $45 CAD for 200'.

The original U-channel had shrunk and gone brittle, so there was a 2-3 inch gap at the bottom of each window with no seal. So, as much as I would rather have a root canal without Novocain, the glass is coming out.

I have buffed the aluminum on a bench grinder and it is looking shiny and sort of new. Parts are dry fit and so far everything seems to be as it should. I will decide if I am going to replace the glass with new tempered stuff this week, or more likely I will have the decision made for me as I try to put it back in the frame.

Then I need to get some material to make new inside frames and get it all mastic putty taped and screwed back in.

Once I have U-channel seal, and get it all back together I will do up a picture or two. Then it is off to the next window.

One sidenote, the nice thing about working on a 43 year old trailer is when you go to pull windows, the putty tape isn't stuck to anything so it comes right off. The not so nice thing is successive owners have siliconed etc the living hell out of the windows to (try to) keep them from leaking, so once out there is a lot of clean up to do.

Cheers
Scott
I have been dragging my heels on ordering (also known as enjoying summer and preparing for school ) but I did get my sample gasket kit from vintagetrailergaskets.com and the U channel they sell is direct match and Robert is very responsive. Check him out as an option and the website is laid out very well once you get your head around it. Tons of information and details on replacement and parts break outs for different Hehr models.

I was able to fix al my window leaks without new gaskets so at this point it would only be for cosmetics, but I will tackle it for the spring.
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Old 09-26-2020, 09:03 AM   #39
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Name: Scott
Trailer: Triple E Surf*Side
British Columbia
Posts: 25
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Hello to all,

So Thursday night I started the process of re-assembling the windows. The U channel I ordered from Amazon seems perfect, so I set about putting 'er all back together.

There is a bit of a learning curve, and while I am happy with this first frame, I will probably take it apart down the road and redo it once I have done the other windows. I should have lots of material to work with, the spool has 200' on it, and my my measure I need less than 100', so lots of extra for do overs.

Here are a couple of pictures, the finished is the lower pane from the pass. side window, and the unfinished is the upper.

The vinyl glazing channel I used is Prime-Line Products, P 7732 Glass Glazing Channel, and it was about $45 on Amazon.ca

Cheers
Scott
Attached Thumbnails
20200926_074721_HDR (002).jpg   20200926_074736 (002).jpg  

20200926_074604_HDR (002).jpg   20200926_074624 (002).jpg  

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Old 10-20-2020, 05:49 PM   #40
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Name: Anne
Trailer: Triple E Surfside
Ontario
Posts: 5
This has been really great info... thanks everyone. Iím rebuilding my windows now. Got the gaskets and new cranks (thanks to you follks). I broke a screw on the windows (long skinny screws). Do you know where I can get new ones?

Thanks!
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