Warning about tight lug nuts on Scamp - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV


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Old 07-27-2019, 11:18 AM   #21
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I've been changing tires and wheels on trucks...cars...trailers....4 wheelers...mowers....tractors for a lot of years....never have added lubrication on the nuts. On some really old vehicles that have sat for years with really bad rust on the lugs....I spray a 50/50 solution of automatic trans. fluid/acetone on the threads....wait 15 minutes...never had a nut not come off. This solution works great on any old rusted nut....I rebuild old horse drawn wagons and carriages from the 19th century.....even works on most 150 year old nuts. Be safe out there!
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Old 07-27-2019, 12:40 PM   #22
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Unless I'm getting new tires or having the existing ones balanced I usually just rotate the tires myself. Not telling anyone else how to do it but I have always coated the lugs with never seize. Not a lot just enough to "paint" the lugs. One application is usually good for the life of the vehicle and it eliminates the lugs from corroding. I have used torque wrenches before but I have a pretty good feel on how tight to make it with 4 way lug wrench. Never had a lug nut come loose so I'm comfortable with the way I do it. If you have to use a 2 or 3 foot cheater pipe to get the lugs loose they are way to tight of corroded in place but regardless its not a bad idea to have a cheater pipe with you just in case. Just don't use it to reinstall the lugs.
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Old 07-27-2019, 01:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Captleemo View Post
Unless I'm getting new tires or having the existing ones balanced I usually just rotate the tires myself. Not telling anyone else how to do it but I have always coated the lugs with never seize. Not a lot just enough to "paint" the lugs. One application is usually good for the life of the vehicle and it eliminates the lugs from corroding. I have used torque wrenches before but I have a pretty good feel on how tight to make it with 4 way lug wrench. Never had a lug nut come loose so I'm comfortable with the way I do it. If you have to use a 2 or 3 foot cheater pipe to get the lugs loose they are way to tight of corroded in place but regardless its not a bad idea to have a cheater pipe with you just in case. Just don't use it to reinstall the lugs.
Absolutely agree,

I prefer copper based, or nickel based anti-sieze over grease, if it's available. And as you say, it probably only needs it once.

At least two people in this thread have talked about not being able to remove the lugs without a cheater bar. That is a good reason for the lube, right there.

As far as the torque value is concerned, lug nut torque is a somewhat crude way of measuring bolt tension, or bolt stretch. But it is a way that anyone can do with a common torque wrench, so it is the standard. If threads get rusty or if they gall, the normal torque will not produce as much bolt tension. If the threads are lubed with grease, the bolt tension will be higher than expected. At the tire shop I used for years, they reduced the torque when I told them my threads were lubed. They were used to seeing it and knew what to do. I do it that way too and have never had a problem with the nuts getting stuck, or coming loose.

I went in to get new tires on my Ram and the bolts had not been lubed yet. The tech came out and showed me how one of the nuts had galled and he could not use it. So I drove around with seven on that wheel until I could get another nut.
At the next rotation I lubed them all. No further problems. Galling happens with roughly cut threads where metal gets stripped off by the nut and binds between the nut and the bolt. Turning the nut further, makes it worse. It can ruin both parts, or the softer of the two. Anti-seize is the best way to prevent it.

I will never get stranded out in the desert with frozen lug nuts and have to find a cheater bar just to change a tire. Not gonna happen.

Everyone should do this as they think best. Blindly follow the normal procedure, which is usually fine, or attempt to reduce the chance of failure by protecting the threads. YMMV.
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Old 07-27-2019, 01:36 PM   #24
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Lug Nuts

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Originally Posted by Bruce H View Post
My family has owned tire shops for forty years. Hundreds of thousands of tires changed. No lube ever.
I am in 100% agreement with you. Clean,
Sharp threads, judicious tightening in the correct pattern to the recommended torque and I think you’re good to go. Rotating tires, inspecting tires and wheels and keeping tires balanced and the regular on and off routines involved have always kept things manageable for me and my family. Fixed my first flat tire in the Standard Oil Station in 1961. Jeez I’m getting old.
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Old 07-27-2019, 01:38 PM   #25
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The man who started this thread, may have missed an important rule.

He said to loosen the nuts , jack up the wheel, lower the wheel and tighten the nuts.
He missed the step of snugging up the nuts - in the proper sequence - BEFORE lowering for final torquing.
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Old 07-28-2019, 12:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Damp Scamp Tramp View Post
Yesterday, I decided to do a mock tire change on my new Scamp 13. That is, loosen the lug nuts, jack up that side, lower it, then tighten the lug nuts. This is to make sure I could do it in case I had a problem and there was no cell phone signal to call for road service.

I used a 13/16 socket on an 18" breaker bar. I'm probably stronger than the average 83 year old man, but the nuts wouldn't budge. I had to add a 2' piece of 1 1/2 pipe as a "persuader" to break them loose. After jacking the rig up and lowering it one side at a time, I tightened all the lug nuts. I will take the trailer to my mechanic and have them checked for proper torque.

If I had had a flat without being able to call for assistance, I would have had to hope for a Highway Patrolman or good Samaritan.

One other caution: A deep socket is needed to remove the spare tire.
onna is right, ask your mechanic how much torque you need and then go to Harbour Freight and Pick up a Torque rench as they are not that expensive there.
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Old 07-28-2019, 04:43 AM   #27
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Good point re: the spare. I checked my spare and found that it was attached using 1/2" 20 thread grade 8 bolts. The trailer is a 2018 and there was significant rust on the bolts holding the spare on. I had a hard enough time removing them, and I'm sure fast forwarding to another year or so and they would have been seized solid. I replaced the bolts with stainless and all is well.
If you use stainless bolts and nuts they may not corrode, but they are much worse about galling than plain steel, especially galvanized.
I worked where we used a lot of stainless and even hand tightening or loosening for that matter resulted in many fasteners welded together where a small, easy job ended up being a major ordeal.
If you use stainless be sure to use never seize. I am talking about for the spare tier storage, never use stainless for the wheel.
Stainless looks nice and won't corrode, but it may make something close by corrode worse (especially aluminum in salt water). Stainless may be a bit weaker as well,
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Old 07-28-2019, 12:42 PM   #28
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lug nuts

Had similar problem. Good conversation. Will buy torque wrench.
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Old 07-28-2019, 01:02 PM   #29
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Does this thread have anything to do with guys wearing loose underwear?


I am a bit of a scamp sometimes.



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Old 07-28-2019, 01:30 PM   #30
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Had similar problem. Good conversation. Will buy torque wrench.

Get yourself a matching breaker bar at the same time.
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Old 07-28-2019, 01:31 PM   #31
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Regarding Post #29
No it does not, the subject of underwear fit is covered under topic heading “Cheap Hotels”
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Old 08-03-2019, 10:55 AM   #32
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Lug nut lube

I use anti-seize, and torque wrench on all my vehicle wheel fasteners, with no adverse effect. Broken studs are a thing of the past.
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Old 08-03-2019, 03:16 PM   #33
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Torque is supposed to be a measure of the tension of the bolt/nut against the parts being held in place, and it is the tension of the nuts/bolt heads against the parts held in place that keep them from unwinding, not the wedging action of the threads against each other. In truth, the spiral wedge shape of a bolt thread is what provides the mechanical advantage that makes it easy to achieve high torque values with minimal force, and that same mechanical advantage is what makes the undoi g of the bolt possible as well.

When race mechanics rebuild or repair an engine they consistently lube the threads of the bolts or studs to fully take advantage of the thread's mechanical advantage and make sure tension is applied uniformly across the parts being assembled, something that's particularly important on things like cylinder heads and other multi-bolt gasketed surfaces where uneven torque leads to warping and failure of the seal. Manufacturer specs on crankshaft bolts, which are often tightened to 150 foot pounds of torque or higher, specify the use of assembly lube to prevent stripping the threads before achieving the torque needed to prevent the crankshaft flywheel from fluttering while it spins at 6000 RPM because flutter can cause failure of the crankshaft journal bearings.

I very lightly lube the threads before installing my wheel rims then the put the lug nuts on and using a torque wrench to tighten them to spec. This prevents the nut-to-wheel surface, which is not mechanically advantaged, from slipping after the wheel is installed.
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Old 08-03-2019, 04:32 PM   #34
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Peter,

Good post.

Engine threads are assumed to be "lightly oiled" to get consistent bolt tension while torquing the nuts.

The variable here is that wheel studs are usually torqued on dry threads. And then, over time can rust and become even harder to get off or gall during installation. Stud tension is what we are really after and nut torque is just a way to achieve that in a crude way. The problem with lubing the threads is that the stud tension changes significantly on a lubed thread, compared to a dry one. So how do you adjust the torque to make up for this? I reduce the torque some to reduce the chance of snapping off a stud, but I've never measured bolt stretch between lubed and non lubed to come up with a roque reduction value. That would be a good bench test to do.

A always lube mine the first time I remove the wheels, and then again later if needed. I like anti-seize for this. And cap nuts are excellent for protecting the exposed threads.

I also try to keep the lube off of the taper where the nut meets the wheel. I've never had any problem with nuts becoming loose after their follow-up re-torquing. Even the tire shop I used for years was fine with it and reduced the torque by about 20% in agreement with me. I do my rotations at home and everything comes apart smoothly and goes back together without any grinding or galling.
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Old 08-03-2019, 09:08 PM   #35
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We bought a 2013 Casita last year. The street side brake was hanging up so I purchased new brake assemblies, bearings, etc. and took a good assortment of tools to the Casita storage location to tackle the job.

The Casita had the original tires from the tire date code so possibly had never been off the drums. I had to fight 9 of the 10 lug nuts using a long 3/4" drive cheater bar and everything I had to break them loose. The fight continued until the nut came off the last thread. They also required lots of effort to reinstall. I was worn out from fighting lug nuts more than everything else I did.

After that job, I purchased a Porter Cable PCE211 1/2" impact wrench (450 ft/lbs torque) and plan to pick up a 1000/2000 watt inverter to have available on the road to provide the 7 1/2 amps (@ 120v) needed to use this hefty impact wrench anytime I need to remove tough nuts on the Casita or tow vehicle. I do use one of the inexpensive HF 1/2" torque wrenches to re-torque.

I've never heard of lubricating lug nut threads and just assumed it could cause problems either in torque reading or just be sticky and picking up dirt etc. on the threads. Enclosed cap nuts make sense and I plan to pick up a couple of sets for the Casita. Should be a good test of the new impact driver! It sounds like a small amount of anti-seize compound may also be a good idea when I change them out.
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Old 08-04-2019, 02:42 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Raspy View Post
The problem with lubing the threads is that the stud tension changes significantly on a lubed thread, compared to a dry one. So how do you adjust the torque to make up for this?
The short answer is I lubricate threads with the appropriate compound for the application (assembly lube, anti-sieze, machine oil) and torque them to spec. The reason this might seem wrong to you is you're mixing up two different forces on the bolt/stud.

The spiral wedge that is the thread of the bolt or stud applies tension to the bolt proportionate to the number of threads per inch or centimeter length of the thread and the rotations the nut or bolt makes after surface contact as it is tightened. Lubricating the threads does not change that part of the geometry or the longitudinal tension on the bolt after a given number of rotations.

Tightening a nut or bolt introduces a second force on the stud or bolt, the spiral shear force of torque. Often times when you've sheared a bolt or torn a stud in a steel-on-steel junction just above the point where the two threads engage, the point at which spiral shear forces are at their peak. A thread lubricant's job is two-fold, the first is to reduce the amount of spiral force required to overcome dynamic friction in the threads while the bolt or nut is moving, the second is to reduce the amount of spiral force needed to overcome the much higher static friction of a bolt or nut that is not moving.

Most sheared bolts and studs fail while actively applying spiral torque to overcome static friction and get the bolt moving again. Bolts are much better at resisting longitudinal tension along their length than they are spiral shear forces. It's pretty rare for a bolt to fail once it has been tightened and static friction at the bolt head or nut is holding it in place.

There are two other way threads fail, and that is by stripping or galling the threads. Stripping occurs when a bolt or nut is over-torqued, creating more longitudinal stress on the threads than they are designed to handle. The second is galling, which occurs when contaminants, like rust or combustion by-products from an engine, make it into the thread space and disrupt the smooth spiral wedge of the thread. One of the jobs of anti-sieze is to seal threads to keep contaminants out, and that can be particularly important for things like spark plugs and nuts and bolts installed in high-vibration environments like those of a braking system.
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Old 08-05-2019, 05:24 PM   #37
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If you want to keep your threads clean, use closed end lugnuts, do not lubricate
Adding anything to the threads will change the torque values and you may not be properly torquing your lugnuts
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:29 PM   #38
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A note on lube and torque:
Torque specs are figured for lubricated threads. Nowadays many automotive bolts are coated with a dry lubricant which is really very good . . . Until it wears off. Before that, bolts weren’t coated and grease was required for a predictable amount of tension to result from a given amount of torque. Greasing a Teflon(or whatever ) coated bolt still works fine. Not greasing a naked bolt can prevent it from reaching adequate tension and will allow the threads to rust eventually even to the point that the studs break before the nut moves. What has worked best for me for the last 52 years is greasing the lug bolts lightly every time before putting the wheels on. You’ll probably be ok either way.
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:29 PM   #39
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If you want to keep your threads clean, use closed end lugnuts, do not lubricate
Adding anything to the threads will change the torque values and you may not be properly torquing your lugnuts
Joe
One size does not fit all… Some wheels have studs in the wheel/brake drum, and use nuts with a cone face to fit the matching countersunk holes in the wheel rim.
Other wheels have threaded holes in the drum, and screws with conical surfaces under the hex head. Rust can happen on all of them. A good anti-rust product like NeverSieze is the best thing to use on the threads. A torque wrench is the best way to apply the specified clamping force. But the lug wrench supplied with the vehicle will tighten them just fine. The length of the wrench is designed to take the force applied by the average healthy person and result in enough torque to do the job. Best to recheck after 50 - 100 miles of driving.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:22 PM   #40
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A cousin of mine was the shop foreman in a large tire shop that mainly dealt with commercial vehicles, but did all sizes as well. He insisted that they use a form of never seize lubricant on threads to assist in removal when needed as well as proper torquing when tightening.

I have always done this too on tire lugs and any fasteners might need removing and are exposed to the potential of water or dirt. I have never had anything close a problem, though have had many successful removals of these fasteners.

If you feel better dealing with seized fasteners instead of using a lubricant, it is your right to do so. In the vast majority of circumstances there will not be a problem.
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