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09-11-2008, 09:53 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 ft / Dodge 3500HD 4X4 Jake Brake
Posts: 7,316
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WOW, you guys are great. THANKS!
Lori and I off camping again this weekend in the High Sierras of California. I will have AC power but will be testing everything I can again.
I’ll let you know if & what I find.
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09-11-2008, 12:57 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2002 19 ft Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 3,640
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09-11-2008, 03:36 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1972 Boler American and 1979 Trillium 4500
Posts: 5,137
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09-11-2008, 05:05 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1960 28 ft Airstream
Posts: 336
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One thing that people tend to forget when sizing generators is initial power draw for motors. This number is significantly higher than the anticipated power draw for a standard motor. Yamaha has a web page for suggested generator sizes:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outdoor/...or/sizing.aspx
which shows the starting power to be an additive amount over the running power of the device, and surprisingly, this number is appx 50% higher than the running power of the unit. What this means, is that while your generator should power the device while running, it kicks it out during start up. Looking at the spec sheets of both devices (yamaha and honda) would indicate that even the Honda can't (or shouldn't) run your unit on start up. I used to have a motor home that required a 30 A circuit to run the AC. Without the AC, it ran fine on a 20 amp circuit. However, it would blow the breaker any time I would power up the AC.
What I don't recall in your conversation is whether or not you are going thru your RV inverter. (Plugging your RV/Trailer into the generator as opposed to a stand alone A/C.) I am assuming if you have a 13,500 BTU AC, it is mounted and wired thru the camper. This inverter also pulls significant load and can affect your generator.
While the honda appears to run your unit where the Yamaha does not is most likely a question that would be solved by analyzing your fusing requirements. House circuits often do not blow because the fuses are not instantaneous, but rather "slow blow" for motors specifically. Depending upon the fusing type in the unit may well solve why the Honda runs it and the Yamaha does not. I do not recommend that you change your fuse to solve this problem, as the fusing is set for the health and welfare of the generator. For all you know, the honda owner might have played with his fuses, and this causes problems in the longetivity of the unit. If you overdrive a generator, you will kill it sooner. These small trailers can often get away with a small AC unit and a 2000W generator, because even considering a 125% increase in load during start up, you may still be able to cover that increase. When your AC is 60-75% of your max generator output, (Which, by the way, they get cranky if they run at this for long periods of time...) When you add that start up current, bad things happen.
I have seen people use pennies as methods to go around fuses that blew. While it might work for a while, there is a reason for that breaker/fuse to blow. You have to be running more current then the generator is designed for. Another factor is that some systems have a greater engineering tolerance in the system than others. What this means is while some are designed to function at precisely what they are sold for, others are overdesigned in order to allow the system to live longer. Pushing that tolerance for convenience or cost, helps you to lose the benefit that it was originally intended for.
You can use a current meter,
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_0...20070921x00003a
which clamps around the conductor from the generator to your RV/AC, and it will tell you how much current you are running. Watch it...because the start up current will be greater than the running current. If it is very quick, you may need one that has storage information so that you can go back and look at the data. These are rather pricey, so if you know someone that has one...ask!
DO NOT USE YOUR MULTIMETER!!! They are not made to monitor high volumes of current.
Pam
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09-11-2008, 10:48 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 ft / Dodge 3500HD 4X4 Jake Brake
Posts: 7,316
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Pam, Thanks for trying to help. A couple of points I think you missed. Yes, I have read the Yamaha website and took a print out to the Service Center to make my points.
BTW: For the cost of that Fluke, I could be well on my way to buying a Honda EU2000i.
Fluke 360, LEAKAGE CURRENT CLAMP METER $642.99 OUCH!
My Trailer has a 11,000 BTU Air Conditioner. Yamaha says on their website the EF24000i will EASILY run a 13,500 BTU air conditioner. Also their specs state the generator will run a 750 watt microwave, which it doesn't.
The generator is suppose to be able to handle 3,000 watts surge and run at 2400 watts.
The generator is an Inverter generator. It does NOT run through the inverter.
Yamaha Service did not charge me the $75 fee for looking at it.
PS: I am in contact with a Yamaha executive. He stated they will help me resolve the issue.
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09-12-2008, 05:17 AM
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#26
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Senior Member
Trailer: Casita Spirit Deluxe 2003 16 ft
Posts: 1,899
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I use the Fluke 336 to measure AC inrush (starting) current. Only half as much too expensive (~$300).
But what I've always drooled over was the Fluke 43B, but even my advanced powers of rationalization won't let me spring $2,000 for a meter. I'm such a wuss.
__________________
Without adult supervision...
Quando omni flunkus, moritati.
Also,
I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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09-12-2008, 08:27 AM
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#27
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1960 28 ft Airstream
Posts: 336
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Quote:
I use the Fluke 336 to measure AC inrush (starting) current. Only half as much too expensive (~$300).
But what I've always drooled over was the Fluke 43B, but even my advanced powers of rationalization won't let me spring $2,000 for a meter. I'm such a wuss.
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Sears also sells one for $59...not quite as good... -I used it as a picture only...I guess I wasn't specific enough...I don't think I would spring for $2k...The data that I could pull off the web in the short term on the yamaha didn't have surge info on it...and the inverter that I was refering to would be inside your trailer. (i.e. did you plug into your trailer plug which also feeds an inverter and draws power, or is your trailer like mine with no inverter/battery/extra feed circuit? (The older burros have a breakered outlet as opposed to a small breaker box.)
Pam
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09-12-2008, 08:29 AM
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#28
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Junior Member
Trailer: 2008 Casita 17 ft Spirit Deluxe
Posts: 29
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Quote:
Pam, Thanks for trying to help. A couple of points I think you missed. Yes, I have read the Yamaha website and took a print out to the Service Center to make my points.
BTW: For the cost of that Fluke, I could be well on my way to buying a Honda EU2000i.
Fluke 360, LEAKAGE CURRENT CLAMP METER $642.99 [b]OUCH!
My Trailer has a [b]11,000 BTU Air Conditioner. Yamaha says on their website the EF24000i will [b]EASILY run a 13,500 BTU air conditioner. Also their specs state the generator will run a [b]750 watt microwave, which it doesn't.
The generator is suppose to be able to handle 3,000 watts surge and run at 2400 watts.
The generator is an Inverter generator. It does NOT run through the inverter.
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Mike: I also own a 2400is Yamaha. The correct surge rating is 2400 watts with a continuous load rating of 2000 watts. The generator easily starts my Coleman 9200 btu roof unit and operates a Sharp Warm & Toasty oven at the same time. One excellent idea suggested in this subject area is to have the Yamaha service center utilize another 2400is for comparison. This would be an easy and logical approach to the issue. Keep us posted on the outcome please.
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09-12-2008, 08:53 AM
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#29
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2007 Casita Liberty Deluxe 17 ft / Honda Odyssey
Posts: 705
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As others mentioned, I would take the trailer out of the equation and start testing the generator on other loads, like portable heaters, home microwaves, computers, etc., basically anything in combination that will tax the generator.
If it won't run a microwave, there's something seriously wrong with it.
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09-12-2008, 11:49 AM
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#30
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Senior Member
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 ft / Dodge 3500HD 4X4 Jake Brake
Posts: 7,316
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OK, this is interesting and frustrating. We are doing just basic testing of the generator with our trailer and its equipment.
We are at about 3000' in the High Sierras, CA. Just below Yosemite. We decided to just start trying item by item to see what would run and what would not. Much the same as we did in Colorado.
First we ran the little electric plug in heater - NO Problem
Second the 750 watt Microwave (full power for one minute) - NO Problem
Third the 11,000 BTU Air Conditioner, on low - NO Problem, WHAT? NO PROBLEM?
Kick it up to High... NO PROBLEM, Runs easily. NO WAY, WHAT IS GOING ON?
Leave the A/C on and turn on the Microwave - Generator circuit breaker trips.
------------------------------------
So what have I learned. It runs fine at 3000' elevation but does not run at 9300' elevation where the smaller Honda does run OK.
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09-12-2008, 01:20 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Trailer: 16 ft Casita Spirit Deluxe
Posts: 1,043
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Mike
Interesting the way it won't work at 9000 ft........ Are you running on regular gasoline??_____ or are you using propane?______ If propane maybe it doesn't work at that altitude?....I'm really not sure...just guessing.
Enjoy yourself up there
Joe
__________________
Joe and Linda
2013 Casita SD
Dodge Ram 4x4
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09-12-2008, 01:22 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2002 19 ft Scamp 19 ft 5th Wheel
Posts: 3,640
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To bad you do not have a way to tell what the RPM is at each level. A TACHOMETER would tell you if the engine is running at the correct RPM.
Could it B that the engine runs slower at higher altitude or does not ramp up to take care of the surge at the higher altitude?
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09-12-2008, 01:28 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 ft / Dodge 3500HD 4X4 Jake Brake
Posts: 7,316
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Quote:
Mike
Interesting the way it won't work at 9000 ft........ Are you running on regular gasoline??_____ or are you using propane?______ If propane maybe it doesn't work at that altitude?....I'm really not sure...just guessing.
Enjoy yourself up there
Joe
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I was using regular gasoline. I wonder if Premium would have helped.
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09-12-2008, 01:31 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 ft / Dodge 3500HD 4X4 Jake Brake
Posts: 7,316
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Quote:
To bad you do not have a way to tell what the RPM is at each level. A TACHOMETER would tell you if the engine is running at the correct RPM.
Could it B that the engine runs slower at higher altitude or does not ramp up to take care of the surge at the higher altitude?
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I think you are hitting the problem. It sounded like it wouldn't or couldn't rev up to full speed. On the Yamaha, there is no way (I can find) to take it off econo mode. It does it on its own from the load required.
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09-12-2008, 02:53 PM
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#35
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Senior Member
Trailer: Casita 17 ft Spirit Deluxe / Infiniti SUV
Posts: 123
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Quote:
So what have I learned. It runs fine at 3000' elevation but does not run at 9300' elevation where the smaller Honda does run OK.
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So, you are not still having the problem after you got home?
Mike, the Honda has a high-altitude carburetor jet option which is recommended if you commonly camp at 5000' or greater. Since we live at 7300' and usually camped at 5000 to 10000 feet (back in those days) Mayberry's changed out the h-a jet for the cost of the part $10, then sent along the normal jet for if we had any problems at sea level. We have used the gen in southern California and no problem pulling the a/c or the micro even without retrofitting to the normal jet. Of course I'll never really know if our Honda would have worked here at 7300' without the h-a jet, 'cause it was never outfitted that way since Mayberry's shipped it to me.
I would guess that your Yamaha would have a similar option of plugging in a high-altitude carb jet for when you come to Colorado.
All that being said, we did have a problem camping in New Mexico in August. Using the gen for the first time in perhaps a year, it wouldn't run our a/c, and only reluctantly would run Joyce's oxygen accumulator overnight, with the eco-throttle turned off. Knew it was not the usual owner maintenance, because it had a new plug, new oil, both filters cleaned, etc. Took it to good local equipment shop (not the local Honda dealer, where dropping it off to them would have cost $75 b.t.w.)----water in the gasoline. Now runs like the gem it always was.
You might blame water in your Colorado gasoline---in southwestern Colorado it ALL comes from the same refinery in New Mexico! It only differs in what the driver spits in the Shell or Exxon or ? tanker before he leaves the plant.
Good luck.
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09-12-2008, 06:37 PM
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#36
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Senior Member
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 ft / Dodge 3500HD 4X4 Jake Brake
Posts: 7,316
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Thanks George. Good info to consider.
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09-13-2008, 09:57 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2006 (25B21RB) 21 ft Bigfoot / Dodge 2500 Diesel
Posts: 110
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Yes, it is very reasonable to expect the Yamaha 2400 to handle the same load as the Honda 2000. It should handle more according to the spec sheet and the independent tests that I have read.
Quote:
The phrase is "Power Factor".
We know that watts = amps times volts. We know that AC is sinusoidal. Amps are sinusoidal and voltage is sinusoidal. To get the rated watts the volts and amps must peak at the same time. However, frequently they don't phase together. The amount they are different is the phase angle and the sine (or cosine, I don't remember which) of the angle is a factor that reduces the available wattage.
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Steve,
Yes, Power Factor is the reason one needs to buy a larger generator than the simple calculation of volts times amps would indicate.
[b]Watts = EI times [b]cosine of phase angle
[b]VARs ( Volt Amperes Reactive) = EI times [b]sine of phase angle
On some appliances the spec VA=xxx is written instead of watts. This is because VA does not equal watts.
[b]In this case, the inductive and capacitive reactance of the trailer load does not change with the Honda vs. the Yamaha power source. If the Honda works, so should the Yamaha. But it may explain why the service department says the Yamaha meets specifications when it clearly does not perform satisfactory. [b]My guess is; the service department test the generator with a purely resistive load and this generator is having a problem with an inductive reactance load.
Dean
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09-14-2008, 10:29 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Trailer: Bigfoot 25 ft / Dodge 3500HD 4X4 Jake Brake
Posts: 7,316
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I camped this weekend with an electrician. He brought out his $600 surge protector which test each line, amps, (i don’t know what all). We tried to test the generator, but it showed an open ground. Every Inverter generator I’ve had has an open ground.
So we tested the appliances one by one in the RV. My RV showed 3 amps with only the converter running when we plugged it in then dropped to 2 amps within a short time.
The refrigerator didn’t show any draw. Carl said it doesn’t show anything below 1 amp. Also, my CPAP didn’t show anything. The microwave showed 16 amps [at] 121 volts. The A/C showed 9 amps [at] 121 volts (missed the surge).
His feelings were that the altitude was causing the generator to run rich. It probably needed different jets or something for that altitude. (this kinda makes sense to me)
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09-14-2008, 10:43 PM
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#39
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
I camped this weekend with an electrician. He brought out his $600 surge protector which test each line, amps, (i don’t know what all). We tried to test the generator, but it showed an open ground. Every Inverter generator I’ve had has an open ground.
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I believe you may find that the Canadian version of the Honda/Yamaha inverter generators have a different grounding system, which is why one can't successfully parallel two of those generators. Apparently the Canadian codes have all generators in one class, whereas the US codes differ above and below certain sizes.
Higher octane won't make a difference at altitude because the lower ambient air pressure means the compression ratio is lower and less octane is needed than at lower altitudes.
The altitude will cause the mixture to run richer which is why motors, LP burners, etc., have substitute orifices for different altitudes. It may be that your particular engine is already running rich and more altitude is causing it to run too rich.
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09-15-2008, 12:00 AM
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#40
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1979 13 ft Boler and 1987 Bigfoot 5th Wheel
Posts: 2,025
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I've run my Honda 2000 from sea level to 8700 ft no problems. I run a house window AC. I don't know what the draw is watts wise all I know is it works!
Very interesting Mike. I'm sorry you are having a hard time with your new generator.
__________________
1979 Boler B1300 | 1987 Bigfoot 5th Wheel | 1988 Bigfoot 5th Wheel | We officially have a collection!
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