110 volt and 12 volt on the same switch?

[Jim Bennett]

The fact it is not legal is well covered here, so I will just add that I would never take the chance of wiring it up that way myself. There are so many easy solutions that would see it done properly, why not do it so?

You have lots of room to add a simple 12V toggle switch there, that is what I would do, and as mentioned above, I would leave the battery on a floating charge whenever you can. Your lights and water pump will all be draining the battery anyway, and it would be much healthier for it to be kept at a full charge if possible.

[Thinh]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Interesting idea!

Would you mind posting a closeup pic with the coverplate off? I'm curious about how it looks on the inside...

Thanks!

Francesca

Hi, there. If the question is for....me, then the following photo is the toggle sw with plate off. Right hand sw in the photo is the sw from toy jeep, using DC and rated at both AC and DC. Left hand sw is AC sw, still in the bag, rated at 15Amp, 125VAC or 10Amp, 250VAC

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Thinh

...There are some toggle sws which are made to handle both AC and DC. In my following photo, that is a toggle sw which was taken out from a...toy jeep for running it's motor. It is rated at 250vac-6A and DC at 8A. The toy jeep is powered by battery both of scales of 6VDC and 12VDC. For whoever who wants to use AC sw in both cases, IMO, just adding parallel capacitor (at picrofara) to shunt the arc and that would be suitable for the job. About codes, of course it is ignored at home-made in some aspect. Without it, one would have no clues totally ab gauge, amperage, current of the needed wire. To me, when I don't use the car for a long period, I unhook car battery completely to prevent internal current. This current, IMO will drain out your battery below the cranking voltage needed when you come back and start the car...and it works everytime I am far away. I will use that experience into my DIY project of camper...Also in my DIY project, DC toggle sw will be used to switch b/t DC supply from converter and battery. AC toggle sw will disconnect 120VAC supply to smart converter. IMO, even though when a battery is full charged, if converter is still connected to 120VAC supply, the current(small amount) is still running thru primary coil of adapter which causes un-necessay heat and could be humming noise in high power converter. Just my personal opinion, though.

I did NOT say that they do not make switches that are both DC & AC rated just the switch in the picture is an AC only switch I think some of you are missing the point. By mixing Line voltage in the same box or on the same device introduces a hazard .You could end up with line voltage being present where it is not expected and is dangerous . For example a incorrectly wired home door bell system could have 132 VAC present on the door bell button rated at 30 volts Imagine standing on a wet concrete steps and touching the button. If in your attempt to save money or take the easy way out you kill yourself that's fine with me . but why ask a question if you do Not want to hear the answer

[Thinh]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I did NOT say that they do not make switches that are both DC & AC rated just the switch in the picture is an AC only switch I think some of you are missing the point. By mixing Line voltage in the same box or on the same device introduces a hazard .You could end up with line voltage being present where it is not expected and is dangerous . For example a incorrectly wired home door bell system could have 132 VAC present on the door bell button rated at 30 volts Imagine standing on a wet concrete steps and touching the button. If in your attempt to save money or take the easy way out you kill yourself that's fine with me . but why ask a question if you do Not want to hear the answer

I am totally agree with you in the aspect of combining AC&DC in the same box. As mentioned, I implied if one does it for his/her own use, as long as he/she knows what he/she is doing and with safe manner, it is OK to go ahead with extra caution as labelling for third party' usage. That's all. We are all members in the same group here. One...coconut at work of course couldn't beat a....whole bunch at work. Just MO...

[rabbit]

Looky here, folks, Chris stated that he has heard the gospel and intends to abide by its precepts. Mission accomplished.

Jack

[Thinh]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

Mixing 120 VAC and !2 VDC on the same device is a NO NO The switch in your picture is rated for AC only . You can not even mix low voltage and line voltage in the same enclosure or box without a divider to separate the systems . This is why power, ,antenna, phone and sound are kept isolated from each other . I worked on a job once where some idiot combined 5 VDC with 380 VAC in the same raceway . The conductors shorted together and destroyed over a quarter of a million dollars of programmable controllers . Codes only make sense when you understand why the rule is there or have seen the damage or injury that was a result of not following the code..

...Talking ab short-way radio antennas, I had chance to work with short-way radio transmitter stations at...+30 years ago. At the bottom of every antenna, there was an underground steel grid as...safety and every service is a subject to LOCK-OUT procedures with multi-keys for different personnels, same as nowadays robotic technicians. Also sometimes one could see there is a steel-grid cage at some street power poles of high voltages for...safety of passerby with big sign of.. CAUTION. Without this cage, one walks underneath those high-voltage lines, a short circuit with...lightening arch will be launch into...his/her ....coconut from above and enough to......barbecue him/her. Just my knowledge, though....

[Raz]

Jim's suggestion of a separate switch for the water pump located elsewhere makes much more sense. A lighted one to remind you it's on is even better. Also you have a fridge (dorm fridge I think?), an air conditioner, and a converter all on the same circuit. Might be a little high for a 15A. circuit? Raz

[LeonardS]

"For whoever who wants to use AC sw in both cases, IMO, just adding parallel capacitor (at picrofara) to shunt the arc and that would be suitable for the job. "

DC switches have to deal with arc inherent in DC load and are designed as such. Adding a capacitor to an AC switch to deal with this arc only works until the capacitor fails (shorted fail), then you have no switching action!

C'MON! If you want to do something like this on your own, fine! But don't put this half information out there in a forum where someone that doesn't know the rest of the info might read it and think (s)he just learned something.

BTW, I have no issue with the original poster's solution, for himself. He explained himself and took responsibility.

[rabbit]

Thank you Peter. I agree that the first mention in the thread of separate enclosures, isolation of systems and use of appropriate components should have been enuf to to turn Chris away from questionable expediency and was indeed enuf to do so.

jack

[Francesca Knowles]

Originally Posted by Thinh

Hi, there. If the question is for....me, then the following photo is the toggle sw with plate off. Right hand sw in the photo is the sw from toy jeep, using DC and rated at both AC and DC. Left hand sw is AC sw, still in the bag, rated at 15Amp, 125VAC or 10Amp, 250VAC

Thanks!

But I meant the question for the O.P.- I'm curious about what it looks like behind the plate in this pic.



Francesca

[Chris Jones]

Raz you are correct that the load on the 15 amp circuit is close to its max. There is no a/c unit in there now. The plan is to go to a 30 amp supply line with a second 15 amp breaker. One breaker for the converter and a second for the fridge and the a/c unit. And it will be at that time when I go to a separated box for the lighted water pump switch and the outlet. According to the numbers rated on the units I have a little wiggle room if the a/c was in there, but it is not so it will be all good until upgrade time.

[Chris Jones]

Originally Posted by Francesca Knowles

Thanks!

But I meant the question for the O.P.- I'm curious about what it looks like behind the plate in this pic.

Francesca

Ok this is how I found it. The wore attached to the ground lug is the one going to the converter. The other that is just wrapped around is the ground coming from the breaker box. There is no wonder why the GFI didn't work properly before.

[Jared J]

I have no issues with the setup, I'm using a 120 volt light switch to run my 12v lights...if it fails, whatever. I didn't find any 12v switch that looked acceptable to me.

However, for a few dollars, you can get a pd4045 or similar setup, have plenty of ac breakers, modern dc fuses, and a smart charger that never needs to be shutoff. I went that route to throw out all the fuses, breaker box, old charger, etc., into one compact unit. It just seemed easier/cleaner to me.

If you need to save the money though, rock on. Personally, I'm the jerk that says if somebody can't tell the difference between romex and 12v primary wire, and cause them to stop and think, they shouldn't be messing around in there, anyway...

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Chris Jones

I also understand that "they" say that you cant switch 12v on a switch designed for 110v. "They" will also explane how an internal combustion engine can not work. It simpley will melt the metal it is made of because of the temps generated in the process are way mpre than the metal will handel.

The two are entirely different: someone who understands the difference between switching AC and switching DC explains why for good reasons the current-breaking capacity of a contact set is lower for DC than for AC, while someone who has no clue what is going on in an engine misinterprets some data and makes a ridiculous assertion about metal melting. "They" is not the name of one person who is always right or always wrong.

If you don't understand the reasoning behind a particular statement that's okay - we all have lots to learn - but I suggest not simply dismissing anything you don't understand.

[Thinh]

Originally Posted by LeonardS

"For whoever who wants to use AC sw in both cases, IMO, just adding parallel capacitor (at picrofara) to shunt the arc and that would be suitable for the job. "

DC switches have to deal with arc inherent in DC load and are designed as such. Adding a capacitor to an AC switch to deal with this arc only works until the capacitor fails (shorted fail), then you have no switching action!

C'MON! If you want to do something like this on your own, fine! But don't put this half information out there in a forum where someone that doesn't know the rest of the info might read it and think (s)he just learned something.

BTW, I have no issue with the original poster's solution, for himself. He explained himself and took responsibility.

All info at your fingertips nowadays if one is willing to learn, compared to +25 years ago without enet...http://www.eaa.org/sportaviationmag/...2_switches.pdf

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by Chris Jones

Ok this is how I found it. The wore attached to the ground lug is the one going to the converter. The other that is just wrapped around is the ground coming from the breaker box. There is no wonder why the GFI didn't work properly before.


Attachment 57057

Me thinks Francesca wanted to see what it looks like now, after you rewired it!!??

[Raz]

Originally Posted by LeonardS

DC switches have to deal with arc inherent in DC load and are designed as such. Adding a capacitor to an AC switch to deal with this arc only works until the capacitor fails (shorted fail), then you have no switching action!

Hi Leonard. I am a little confused by your statement. Perhaps you can clarify?

When you say "arc inherent in DC loads" do you mean reactive (i.e. inductive) loads? I am not sure arcing is an issue with a purely resistive load.

What characteristics would be employed to make a DC switch that would be different from an AC switch?

Assuming the capacitor is chosen with a proper voltage value, why would it fail?

Thanks, Raz

[Thomas G.]

Chris, now aren't you happy that you posted your handiwork?

[Chris Jones]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Me thinks Francesca wanted to see what it looks like now, after you rewired it!!??

I will have to get one the next time I pull the cover off. I will send it to her in a PM.

[Chris Jones]

Originally Posted by Thomas G.

Chris, now aren't you happy that you posted your handiwork?

It's OK. It has given lite to possible issues that can come about. But I really do think the guys here are trying to make sure that everyone understands that I have used the switch for a purpose that it was not intended for. Also that there is a danger when working on the electrical wiring if you do not understand what you are doing. I understand the danger in putting the 12 and 110 in the same box, but didn't really consider anyone poking around in there but me.

Like using a milk crate for a step. If it collapses and you bust your butt don't be mad about it. It wasn't designed to be a step!

Oh and I got to get some pics up of that clear tubing going to my stove! Now that should be a Gas!