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04-13-2016, 12:31 PM
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#21
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Member
Name: Pete
Trailer: Casita
Georgia
Posts: 75
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My $.02 worth. I tow with a GMC K3500 diesel. It has no trouble keeping the refrigerator running and all connected batteries charged while towing. I don't even bother disconnecting or switching to propane while parked for under an hour. I am happy with my 3 way fridge.
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04-13-2016, 12:59 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Trailer: Escape 17 ft
Posts: 8,317
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All these amps and watts and such, but nobody seems to mention the size of the fridge they are talking about.
Mine is a 5 cu. ft. two-way ( 120V / propane ) and it does a fine job under all conditions.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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04-13-2016, 01:47 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Name: Z
Trailer: Sasquatch
Montana
Posts: 2,556
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I don't know any of those beer brands, but I like your fridge priorities!
I should get one of those half shelves so I can fit taller bottles in my fridge, too...
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04-13-2016, 01:51 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Name: Tim
Trailer: '88 Scamp 16, layout 4
North Florida
Posts: 1,547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krista
Tim...did you go with a portable solar panel or fixed? We too are thinking of going this route so our propane is limited to just the stove. Do you find it works well in keeping your battery topped up? We live in the (oftentimes rainy and cloudy) pacific northwest...but considering we'll mostly be camping in summer seasons, we hope the solar will be worthwhile investment.
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I have not used solar in an actual camping situation yet. I have only played with it in the backyard. I plan on mounting two 100W panels on the roof and keep a third 100W panel for portable use if required or desired. I have done weekend camping trips, 2+ days/nights, and without any recharge at all my 220AH battery bank (two 6V Golf Cart batteries) easily stayed above 50% running the fridge, my CPAP machine at night, and a few LED lights.
The Truckfridge was a personal choice due to the seamless nature of operation once installed. I turn it on at home (trailer plugged in) a day before leaving on a trip to cool down. Under way the truck mostly keeps up with the fridge's power use so we arrive at camp still pretty close to full charge. I think solar will keep up with all my electrical needs but if it does not then I have backup, a swell little Honda genny. . As to the concern about running out of power in the wee, dark hours and loosing an electric fridge; well all I can say is if a camper can not plan any better than that they would probably run out of propane too!
And since Glenn asked, the TF-130 is 4.2 CF. It is actually a little big for our purposes.
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04-13-2016, 01:53 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo
All these amps and watts and such, but nobody seems to mention the size of the fridge they are talking about.
Mine is a 5 cu. ft. two-way ( 120V / propane ) and it does a fine job under all conditions.
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Beer and Smoked Salmon? what more does a guy need in his fridge? :lout
Zach is correct though - the cut out is for tall bottles of WINE!!!
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04-13-2016, 04:26 PM
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#26
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Moderator
Name: RogerDat
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 16
Michigan
Posts: 3,744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete_britt
My $.02 worth. I tow with a GMC K3500 diesel. It has no trouble keeping the refrigerator running and all connected batteries charged while towing. I don't even bother disconnecting or switching to propane while parked for under an hour. I am happy with my 3 way fridge.
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Need to have an alternator capable of dealing with the load the fridge puts on the system. Some vehicles such as yours do and some don't and some vehicles you can upgrade alternator if desired or required. Our Ford Escape alternators range from ~130 amp to ~240 amp. That large one would have no problem the smallest one? Maybe not going to work.
Absorption fridge running on 12 volt uses an electric heating element. Heating element does draw enough power that if the alternator is not up to it the house battery will end up discharged even while driving down the road. Possibly even the vehicle battery will end up getting drawn down, depending on how TV charging is tied into trailer house power. A 12 volt compressor type fridge draws less so less of an issue.
Not to start up an old argument but a lot of folks just run the froidge on propane while driving or some shut it off and figure it will stay cool during a days driving. Debate over running with propane on is really pointless because folks do what they feel is comfortable. Not going to change any minds one way or the other.
Seems like getting this electric load and charging right involve way too much math or one just over engineers to build in a good cushion. Three 100 watt solar panels and a couple of golf cart batteries provide a nice cushion in case of any "rounding errors"
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04-13-2016, 04:45 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
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Much of this discussion revolves around camping without hook ups. If one camps where AC is available most of the time, then a "dorm" fridge provides an inexpensive solution with a ice chest back up for the occasional off grid adventure.
Comparing the cost of a 3 way propane fridge vs a RV compressor fridge with the additional batteries, solar, and/ or generator I suspect the propane fridge is cheaper. Then again, a Coleman cooler might look pretty good even including the cost of ice. Raz
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04-13-2016, 05:22 PM
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#28
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Moderator
Name: RogerDat
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 16
Michigan
Posts: 3,744
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Raz raises a good point, in most cases it just needs to keep some stuff cool and it only has to work in your type of camping. Scamp still sells ice boxes that fit in the small fridge space. Members have reported that by adding insulation around the back and sides when the installed it they can get 4 days from a block of ice.
We have a working fridge but mostly just use cooler for beverages and another for food. Find being able to set cooler outside where we are preparing food works well for us. We cook outside. In bad weather we just snack and eat light meals... or head to a restaurant, that works too. Been awhile since we spent a week out in the woods too far to go pick up ice.
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04-13-2016, 05:36 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
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My Norcold DE-704 with the swing compressor has an input of 12 vdc or 120vac.
The 12 volts runs an oscillator ar 60 hz. and has a transformer shared with the 120 vac with an output from the DC oscillator or the 120VAC of about 24 VAC at 60Hz.
The swing compressor is very sensitive to the frequency of the power going to it.
Many of these fridges don't work correctly because the oscillator has drifted off that 60 hz.
Some of these wont work on 12 vdc or don't work on 120vac.
The advantage of these units is that they don't have a current surge on starting.
The dorm fridges will work on an inverter, but it has to be a fairly large on to start.
I had a 300 watt inverter that would not start a 40 watt dorm fridge.
A cigarette plug in inverter about maybe 100 watt or less will run the Norcold on 12 volt easily, but the the thing will run on 12 VDC all by itself.
My long term test on power showed that it averaged about 17 watts over several weeks.
Also the fridge runs fine on power from the tow car and when stopped the trailer battery will also keep up easily.
Personally I prefer this to the propane/12/120 unit I had in a 1980 VW Westfalia camper years ago.
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04-14-2016, 09:43 AM
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#30
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Senior Member
Name: Doug
Trailer: Trillium
California
Posts: 246
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One thing about battery driven fridges (or any other type), is that in the long run the watt/hours required to keep the fridge cool is exactly equal to the loss of heat from opening the door, leakage through the seals and leakage through the body of the fridge plus the heat discharged from the pipe containing the heating element. It's the law of conservation of energy. So, anything you can do to reduce heat loss will extend battery run time. When I remounted the fridge in our Trillium, I realized there was room surrounding the fridge, so I surrounded the fridge in 1" rigid foam insulation and sealed it well with tape. Also the better you can vent the top outlet of the pipe that contains the heater, away from the body of the fridge, the better.
Doug
__________________
Doug
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04-14-2016, 09:48 AM
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#31
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz
Much of this discussion revolves around camping without hook ups. If one camps where AC is available most of the time, then a "dorm" fridge provides an inexpensive solution with a ice chest back up for the occasional off grid adventure.
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Very valid point Raz and as the OP is located in BC where few Provincial Campgrounds have AC its something that needs to be given serious considered.
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04-14-2016, 10:05 AM
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#32
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Moderator
Name: RogerDat
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 16
Michigan
Posts: 3,744
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I forget who it was that posted the fridge modification of hanging clear plastic or vinyl curtains in front of each fridge shelf. Sort of what like what might be in the doorway of a walk in freezer. It allowed owner to see where item was located and retrieve it without allowing all the cold air to spill out of the refrigerator. One approach to conservation of energy.
There have also been pictures of adding the extra insulation around the ice box. I'm pretty sure it was ice box but no reason it could not be done with a fridge too.
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04-14-2016, 10:39 AM
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#33
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat
There have also been pictures of adding the extra insulation around the ice box. I'm pretty sure it was ice box but no reason it could not be done with a fridge too.
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I added the foil bubble wrap around the fridge in my Scamp and sealed off all the gaps in the rear compartment with tape and it did help somewhat its old fridge in warm weather.... but I suspect adding the fan to the rear compartment returned the biggest bang for the buck.
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04-14-2016, 10:46 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
Trailer: Escape 17 ft
Posts: 8,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat
I forget who it was that posted the fridge modification of hanging clear plastic or vinyl curtains in front of each fridge shelf. Sort of what like what might be in the doorway of a walk in freezer.
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Several members on Escape Forum thought that was a good idea too, until they bought the product, installed it, and used it in practice. Ended up holding the door open longer, struggling to get some item off the shelf at the back, etc.
I'd save my money and just not open the door as often.
I still haven't convinced my wife to close the door while trying to remember why she opened it in the first place.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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04-14-2016, 11:26 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
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On my Norcold Swing compressor fridge I added insulation in the form of 1/4" cork top, bottom and sides and styro-foam along the back against the outside wall.
The back of the fridge has an air channel for removing heat from the coils and I provided the "chimney" below and above with plenty of clearance.
I also added a small quiet computed 12 volt fan that is operated from the switched power to DC oscillator. This powers the fan to improve the heat transfer when running on 12 v DC. The fan only runs when the compressor is actually running on 12 V.
I can't speak for all of the swing compressors, but the fridge in my Scamp is the noisiest thing in the thing camper (TV possibly excepted or my wife's snoring) Shhh don't say a word!
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04-14-2016, 02:21 PM
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#36
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Senior Member
Name: Kenji
Trailer: Scamp
Arizona
Posts: 121
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I installed a Norcold sawafuji swing motor fridge in my Scamp 16 and I agree. The mounting points for the compressor are hardened and the vibration transfers to the shell.
Sitting alone outside of the camper (mine is a freestanding marine variant) it is literally the quietest fridge I have NEVER heard. xD That all changed when it was pressed against the wheel arch. The very worst is when the AC and the fridge are both running. The two 60hz wave forms clash within the fiberglass shell. It's kind of like when two trucks or buses are idling next to each other. You get a loud sound that comes and goes. Sometimes it goes quiet as they cancel themselves out, other times it gets 5 times louder as they amplify the other. WHOOooooooooWHHOOOooooWHOOOoooo over and over. I have since fixed this by mounting both compressors in oil filled silicone bushings. The type used to mount optical drives.
I took the fridge apart and foam filled it, and I am also filling the entire cavity in the scamp around it with polyiso foam board insulation. I have one layer so-far.
Even with the noise as it was, I loved the DC compressor fridge compared to my 3 way propane one. That thing was just so picky it was almost never cold.
We had an awesome full size propane 2 way fridge in our class A RV that worked amazing though. It depends on a lot of factors.
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04-14-2016, 02:30 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Name: Kenji
Trailer: Scamp
Arizona
Posts: 121
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Oh I forgot to mention, my 55 amp tiny alternator keeps up with all of the loads I put it under while driving. If your trailer isn't charging off of your tow vehicle I HIGHLY doubt it is the alternators capacity that's the issue. Even my dinky 55amp alternator can run a 3 way fridge on DC. That's a LOT of power. Mine took some 200 watts. The actual reason that it won't keep up with the fridge, or won't charge the battery is voltage drop.
You can take care of that by using a boost regulator in the battery box as close to the batts as possible. Set it at 14.4 (or wherever you want) and feed that with the connection to your tow. Even if the voltage drops to 9v through the wires to get there, it will charge your battery. Just make sure that this is only happening when the key is on and engine running. Otherwise it WILL drain your vehicles starting battery at all times. Not good.
I use two more buck regulators (those drop the voltage) between my trailer brakes to reduce their power, and the other combined with a small microprocessor to reduce my furnace power consumption and noise by over half. I also have a custom pwm speed regulator for the furnace. Some folks have asked to buy them from me, which sent me down the path of my more recent and simplified approach with the buck regulators. The custom one was profiled for my exact furnace and sail switch etc. so I couldn't sell it and expect it to work for other furnaces.
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04-14-2016, 03:18 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Name: Z
Trailer: Sasquatch
Montana
Posts: 2,556
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I know when I saw the gauge wire supplied in my brake controller wiring kit that it wasn't going to do much charging of my coach battery. It's a pretty long run from the truck alternator to the trailer battery, and the wire can't be more than 14 gauge...
I know when I was wiring my motorhome, I was looking at nothing smaller than 8 gauge wire for any charging needs.
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04-14-2016, 03:23 PM
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#39
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Senior Member
Name: Kenji
Trailer: Scamp
Arizona
Posts: 121
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My stock trailer aux power wire included with my Geo/Suzuki Tracker drops voltage so badly that the 14.4 measured at my battery when running becomes 12.1 at the 7 pin connection. No load. Without the booster it's useless.
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04-14-2016, 04:15 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
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When I installed the 12 power to the trailer in my 2013 VW Sprotwagen I used a 20 amp breaker ans a 30 amp relay to disconnect if the car was not running.
The wire I ran to the rear was #10 as was the wire from the brake controller.
(I had the wire already so why not a little overkill?)
On the Swing compressor I replaced the old hard rubber mounts with Sorbothane ones, but it didn't help a lot.
Sometimes the noise is louder than others I suppose the pressures are different with different temps.
You are correct in that the resonances between the fridge and the other thins are the most irritating.
My wife doesn't notice it, but knowing what is running etc I assume I am more attune.
The Norcold will keep stuff cold though not like the small 3 way in the old VW van camper. I think you could set the thermostat and freeze the whole box.
when I have checked the voltage (and current) at the trailer with various loads there is very little drop with my setup.
I installed some inexpensive power monitors so that I could tell what was going on with those pesky electrons.
These cost than $20 each. This is how I know that the fridge averages about 17 watt per hour in use.
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