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10-13-2014, 03:40 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber Wolf
Umm, no. I am a Carpenter, have several construction related licenses (Building, Mechanical, Plumbing, Electrical). Grew up on a real farm, and have been involved in building every kind of building there is, except maybe a dam. My fear of propane comes from having lived in an older trailer that had propane appliances, because fire burns and gas & smoke kills. I have been burnt, smoked, and gassed enough in my life. My fear comes FROM understanding propane appliances and the dangers involved. Fire in a very small trailer, is very, very bad. People advocating others to not worry about aging gas appliances (and associated piping) in old trailers is doing them a grave (pun intended) dis-service. I have a friend who works for the State Parks here. He says every year they hear about campers found dead from propane leaks in their trailer. They even have a name for them, "Pinks", because appearantly they turn pink in the process (I am kind of a pink hue to start with). And this is in Florida, were you would think not a lot of heaters and such are required!
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Propane asphyxiation would not turn a person "pink".
Carbon Monoxide poisoning will. It is the byproduct of combustion, so a leaky plenum or exhaust pipe can cause a "pink", but not a propane leak.
Propane also has an odorant mixed in for detection, so death by fire from a propane leak would be more likely than asphyxiation from raw propane.
Especially since propane is heavier than air.
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10-13-2014, 04:07 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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CO asphyxiation in an RV is more apt to come from using the stove to heat the RV, using a portable LP heater, or even using a charcoal BBQ for heating or cooking inside, without ventilation.
Look at my earlier post for the Lawyers take on peeps that can't smell LP odorant
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10-13-2014, 04:34 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Prescription Drugs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Magee
Yep, prescription drugs kill! I'm gonna tell the pharmacist where he can stick 'em!
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Every Prescription drug has a alpha numeric code on it. In about 15 seconds Google can tell you what you have. I always check mine.
For example V-3592 is Acetaminophen and hydrocodone bitartrate 500 mg / 5 mg.
Put Rx before the code. If it doesn't have a code, don't take it.....
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10-14-2014, 09:47 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Name: Francois
Trailer: Bigfoot
British Columbia
Posts: 1,163
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crazy idea.....
here's a crazy idea....
if one is REALLY worried about propane accumulation from a leak and/or CO poisoning.... just drill a hole in the center of the floor of the RV and install a floor drain (as in a bathroom or garage)... told ya it was crazy
but seriously...as propane is heavier than air accumulation can't happen....and it only takes a window cracked open just a bit to take care of any CO issues (before I turn in, I always crack a window....just can't go to sleep otherwise).....a drain would take care of both issues
not only a "two birds with one stone" solution....if you spilled something in the trailer you could just squeegee it to the center of the floor...
add a removable screen on the outlet (insects) and a removable plug for use when driving on dusty roads......and you're done.....
it won't cost a hundered and fifty bucks, it won't expire after a while so you won't have to buy another one....and nobody is going to ask you when's the last time you had your drain inspected.....but hey, you can't have everything....where would you put it?
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10-14-2014, 10:41 AM
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#25
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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Quote: "crazy idea..... Here's a crazy idea...."
Next time anyone opens a window and it's cooler outside than inside, note which way the air flows....
Accumulation can and will happen and only what LP happens to be over the hole, and when the temp outside is not greater than inside, might exit.
But, as most leaks happen in cabinets, where it an accumulate, and not in the middle of the floor. Me thinks that an appropriate LP/CO alarm is the only suitable answer.
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10-14-2014, 11:27 AM
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#26
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbie Mayer
I can see requiring an inspection for mods done to electrical and propane systems unless done by a licensed person. But there should be no need for plans and a permit. .
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Here is the thing, normally when a permit is required the body that issues the permit also follows up with an inspection to ensure it has been done correctly & to permit and plan submitted ... or at least that is how it is done in regards to permits etc in these parts. For example lots of folks like to complain about having to take out a building permit to build a deck on their home & believe that building permits are just doing a money grab when in fact its for the homeowners protection as well as any future owners protection. There are lots of people out there who claim to know what they are doing but somewhere down the road someone may have the misfortune of discovering that was not the case. Don't believe me just take a look at some of the post here where people are asking for help to sort out some handy work of the trailers previous owner!
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10-16-2014, 01:29 PM
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#27
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Junior Member
Name: Annette
Trailer: Scamp 16'
Washington
Posts: 11
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I live in Washington, and I knew our state can be pretty stupid, but this is just ridiculous! And... they can just kiss my @ss if they think I'm going to pull a permit to make modifications to my little egg!!
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10-16-2014, 05:45 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Name: Carl
Trailer: 2015 Escape 5.0TA
Florida
Posts: 1,691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apanchot
I live in Washington, and I knew our state can be pretty stupid, but this is just ridiculous! And... they can just kiss my @ss if they think I'm going to pull a permit to make modifications to my little egg!!
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Unfortunately, Washington does not have a monopoly on ridiculous. It seems to be in many places.
Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
__________________
What a long strange trip it’s been!
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10-16-2014, 07:41 PM
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#29
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Moderator
Trailer: 2009 19 ft Escape / 2009 Honda Pilot
Posts: 6,224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaK
There are many RVs, new and old, that should not be on the road.
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Not just RVs, but lots of other vehicles too.
But, what you say here is very true. All the systems in RVs, whether propane or electrical, have been proven to be safe, if properly installed and maintained appliances, piping and cabling are used. I too have seen a lot of jury rigged fixes, many meant to be temporary but never properly rectified, and left to be a permanent fix, often made with inadequate methods.
I think it would not be a bad idea if RVs were required to meet certain code requirements after repairs or modifications have been done, no different than when newly manufactured. Maybe a mandatory test every few years, or even random roadside inspections should be performed. I know they set up here every now and then to do roadside checks of other vehicles, especially bigger trucks, and it is amazing how many infractions they find.
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
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10-16-2014, 11:38 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bennett
Not just RVs, but lots of other vehicles too.
But, what you say here is very true. All the systems in RVs, whether propane or electrical, have been proven to be safe, if properly installed and maintained appliances, piping and cabling are used. I too have seen a lot of jury rigged fixes, many meant to be temporary but never properly rectified, and left to be a permanent fix, often made with inadequate methods.
I think it would not be a bad idea if RVs were required to meet certain code requirements after repairs or modifications have been done, no different than when newly manufactured. Maybe a mandatory test every few years, or even random roadside inspections should be performed. I know they set up here every now and then to do roadside checks of other vehicles, especially bigger trucks, and it is amazing how many infractions they find.
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Is there any evidence that there is a problem large enough to justify another government bureaucracy and fee schedule?
I don't think so.
I bought my camper to get away from bureaucrats and relax.
I would rather have it invaded by a hoard of rude, mooching, boorish, cigar smoking, flatulent, incontinent alcoholics with halitosis and slobbering pets which have not been housebroken.
Wait a minute... how would I tell the difference?
Oh I know... Its the PAPERWORK!.
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10-17-2014, 12:16 AM
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#31
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Senior Member
Name: Dave
Trailer: Casita SD17 2006 "Missing Link"
California
Posts: 3,738
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Good one Floyd, my chuckle for the day.
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10-22-2014, 01:23 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2009 Trillium 13 ft ('Homelet') / 2000 Subaru Outback
Posts: 2,222
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Thank you one and all
I guess I found a 'sore spot' and got lots of comments on this thread.
I am conflicted as to 'inspections'. Our house was 'inspected' for correct insulation installation yet there is a 3 foot section in one corner of our family room that has no insulation what so ever.
Then there is the insurance aspect. I understand if a homeowner does some electrical work in his house and a fire results that can be blamed on his work, insurance companies have been known to deny payment because of 'unauthorized work.'
RV's have a special problem in that they move and this puts strain on all components. Screws back out, fittings loosen, etc.
Strangely enough, Washington licensed our trailer without an inspection of any kind.
Y'all be safe out there.
__________________
A charter member of the Buffalo Plaid Brigade!
Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
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10-22-2014, 02:47 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
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I visited a Washington L&I office late last week and it appears that they are about as serious as a heart attack in insisting that permits be pulled, plans laid out and inspections be performed on most work done on "Factory Built Structures", which includes almost all sizes and shapes of motorhomes and trailers.
They were mum on actual enforcement, but suggested that if I wanted to work on RV's at my house, that it would be difficult to do much that didn't require a permit and, that failing to do so, could get very expensive for moi.
Using current charts provided, typical fees for installing a hot water system in a SCAMP, including a new water heater, lp & water plumbing, pump and faucets could exceed $180 for permits and inspection and, if you have to submit a plan for review before starting, that's another $166. Just installing a replacement lp water heater is $141.00
Can't see anything else to add to this discussion.....
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10-22-2014, 05:32 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Name: Ron
Trailer: 2015 Oliver Legacy Elite II - Hull #69
South Carolina
Posts: 356
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I think this is much ado about nothing. Laws on the books but nobody to care about or enforce them.
Modify your RV as you please, use some common sense and be done with it. Voluntarily subjecting yourself to getting permits and inspections is just stupid and you'll regret it.
Don't feel comfortable fixing a leaky pipe? Then don't do it! Take it to Camping World and pay to have them fix it.
Your first mods should be carbon monoxide detector and fire detector. Hopefully your sticky tape is sanctioned by the good bureaucrats in WA.
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10-23-2014, 06:52 PM
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#35
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Senior Member
Name: Jared
Trailer: 1984 19' scamp
Kansas
Posts: 1,610
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Thank god kansas has some sanity left. My '84 scamp would have cost me $10,000 in permits in Washington.
Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
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10-23-2014, 07:04 PM
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#36
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Senior Member
Trailer: 1988 16 ft Scamp Deluxe
Posts: 25,697
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Call me crazy, but I blame the need for all these permits on the Tiny Home Movement. How many website are saying something like... build your tiny home on a frame and tow it down the road? OMG, shingles flying off and fireplace bricks crashing down. These folks are sharing the roads with the rest of us.
Laws are put in place to provide a level of punishment. No law... no crime, no consequences.
You own an all molded towable and want to replace the toilet? That's totally different than someone building a shack and they want to move it down the road a couple hundred miles.
Truly, these rules are not about YOU.. it's about THEM.
__________________
Donna D.
Ten Forward - 2014 Escape 5.0 TA
Double Yolk - 1988 16' Scamp Deluxe
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10-23-2014, 08:18 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Name: Carl
Trailer: 2015 Escape 5.0TA
Florida
Posts: 1,691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared J
Thank god kansas has some sanity left. My '84 scamp would have cost me $10,000 in permits in Washington.
Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
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Yep. There are some places left in the USA where common sense still exists.
Sent from my iPhone using Fiberglass RV
__________________
What a long strange trip it’s been!
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10-26-2014, 05:01 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2009 Trillium 13 ft ('Homelet') / 2000 Subaru Outback
Posts: 2,222
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Some Answers
I talked to a person with the Iowa State Government. He says Iowa does not have such a thing.
I contacted Gary Bunzer the RVDoctor and he said it used to be more prevalent and called them "Code States." He also stated that he thinks that there are about 4 or 5 Code States left, and that it was intended for manufacturers.
I happened upon it while looking for something else in the Washington State website and was surprised to learn it even existed. Not knowing the extent, I started this thread to alert FGRVer's.
__________________
A charter member of the Buffalo Plaid Brigade!
Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right.
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10-28-2014, 11:43 AM
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#39
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Moderator
Name: RogerDat
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 16
Michigan
Posts: 3,744
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Most building codes have a good reason behind them, placement of outlets, running of wire, number of connections per cubic inch of junction box.
Footings for deck do need to be below frost line to prevent frost heave. Having manufactures or professionals held to codes is probably a good thing. Any DIY work should probably also follow code or best practices, which makes it an individual responsibility to do so.
Inspectors to enforce those codes can be a good thing. Brother in law is an inspector in Fla. a couple of times he has been thanked on construction jobs for preventing serious future problems. Too much electrical and AC units in small space with too little ventilation, or the main concrete supports for an elevated home having trenches cut in the surface to hide electrical conduit. The first would have generated enough heat to ruin the equipment for sure and possibly start a fire, in the second case the strength of concrete column is in the edges, engineer was hired and said electrician that made all those cuts had taken about 40% of the strength holding up the center of the house. Adding support now was cheaper than after the house fell down in a hurricane.
On the other hand having to file a site plan to build a 10x12 shed on over an acre of land, then pay for permit, then inspections as if one was building a house? I would be fine with a small fee, say $25 for them to come out and determine shed location is properly set back from the property line and anchored well enough that it will not blow into the neighbors yard (even if I owe him for his unsecured trampoline blowing into my fence and breaking a post).
If my shed gets frost heave and leans it's my problem, if you buy the house I doubt you will value the shed much if the floor is buckled and leaning. Same for the deck or my basement office outlets. Most people pay for a house inspection before purchase. If they want to know how deep the footings are they can take my word for it, or there is a shovel in that shed, dig and look for yourself.
When it comes to buying a camper, buyer beware do your own inspections or hire it done. Because I will repair, replace, and modify as I see fit. I think I do pretty good safe work. But who knows I may have misunderstood the YouTube video that taught me everything I know about how the whole propane system works.
Depending on a system of "inspections" that can be easily bypassed would be foolish. I did hear that Ann Arbor now requires the building inspector to check houses being sold for alterations that don't have permits... mostly so the fees can be charged would be my guess.
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10-28-2014, 12:06 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerDat
I did hear that Ann Arbor now requires the building inspector to check houses being sold for alterations that don't have permits... mostly so the fees can be charged would be my guess.
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It pretty common practise these days for home buyers to hire an independent home inspector as one of the conditions of the purchase offer. It is also pretty standard practise of the home inspector to check with the local government as to what if any permits have ever been taken out on the home. Its to protect the purchaser! Here you can just go on line punch in the address of the home you are interested in and see what if any permits have ever been taken out on the home.
So if you are putting in an offer on an older home with shiny new bathroom or kitchen and the sales agent tells you the kitchen or bathroom was completely gutted and redone or perhaps its got a new gas furnace etc etc Then you go on line and see that there were no permits taken out for any electrical or furnace install etc... buyer beware!!
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