Battery charging questions

[ruscal]

Originally Posted by rabbit

Russ, most of the physical footprint of the 4000 series is the distribution panel and housing. The 9000 series is converter only, possibly a desirable option for those with space limitations. I have the PD9245 bolted to the back side of a Magnatek minus the original converter.

jack

Jack,
I looked at some of the converter only devices, and watched a Youtube video of a guy doing a conversion of his distribution device. PD doesn't make one for my American unit that I know of. I suppose it is not too difficult to trace out the wiring and swap the converter out of any unit, but hard to know if it is worth the gamble and trouble just for better cosmetic result. At least you wouldn't have to rewire all the circuits that way. The Iota unit that Denny mentioned appears to be a stand alone converter also. The American panel I have may not be large enough to house the new converter, so may have to mount it remotely under the rear dinette seat.
Russ

[ruscal]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

The battery minder is only for when the trailer is at home. My solar panel charges with 4 amps with direct sunlight. In your case a bigger solar panel is probably a good idea. The solar charge controller is a MorningStar PWM. The panel is 65 Watts 4.1 amp. With my solar system if you sleep 8 hours you'd need 4 hours of sun the recharge.
I've got mine set up for portable use, meaning I move panel around to keep it in the sun.
I think I would be tempted to go with more battery and a larger solar panel than I have so that could go an extra day if needed. Also some days are cloudy you don't get as much from the sun.

If you're always plugged in then all this doesn't matter.

Byron,
The portable setup is nice for positioning where the sun is unblocked and can be easily re-aimed as needed. Not having to deal with proper roof mounting and space to place them is also good. The only issue that bothers me about portability is theft. I would need to leave the campsite un-attended while hiking etc. I guess you just have to take your chances. I thought about mounting the panels on the Jeep, but there again we sometimes are out and about with the tug, so no charging.
Russ

[Derek Johnson]

If you are only charging at just over 13 volts it is going to take a long time. The Progressive Dynamics converter with "Charge Wizard" uses about 13.2 volts as the "float" or maintenance voltage and as high as around 14.2 volts when charging. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but if their data is to be believed it can reduce charging time from something like 10-12 hours to more like 2-3 hours. So if someone has an older converter they may fire up a generator for a few hours and expect it to really do something, but it just isn't enough time for it to get the job done at that voltage. Even worse is if they are using a tradition generator rather than the inverter style, which is not only loud but burns much more gas.

I wouldn't charge the battery at 86% if using a generator--it is fine to let it get as low as 50%.

[honda03842]

Russ,

Our approach is to have numerous methods of charging our battery. We have a solar panel which is generally plenty when in the sunny parts of the North America. As well we can charge from our tow vehicle as we drive, enough to keep us charged during our typical 3-4 hour drive. As well on occasion we have carried a 1000 watt generator when traveling across Labrador in the spring when the sun is relative low and the sky can be gray.

We have a smart charger as well. When camped with services we will often leave that on and let the smart charger do it's thing.

Like Byron, the best thing we've done is to replace every lamp and fixture with an LED equivalent. For most people Lamps are the largest 12 volt draw. As to the reliability of Smart Converters our last one lasted for 14 years and was still good when we sold the rig. Our present one is 6 years old. Like most parts of our RVs, we leave them powered virtually all the time.

[Bob Miller]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

In other words you pulled that 85% number out of ........


Having been in electronic manufacturing all my life "high rate of failure" equals somewhere between 1% and 5% return rate. Maximum assuming that only 50% of failures are returned would between 2% and 10%. A long way from your 85%.

------------------------------------------------------------

I was only repeating the comment made by the rep I talked to, who I am sure wasn't a failure rate guru for the manufacturer. .

In as much as these were/are all made in CHINA some 10 years ago I am sure that very few customers even bother looking for parts, so the ones he knew about may not even represent a true sample. And, if asked, I doubt if many dealers would suggest a repair considering the high price of the one board vs a whole new box. Unless you went to Camping World that is... LOL. But again, their poor performance and failures are fodder hereabouts.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by ruscal

Byron,
The portable setup is nice for positioning where the sun is unblocked and can be easily re-aimed as needed. Not having to deal with proper roof mounting and space to place them is also good. The only issue that bothers me about portability is theft. I would need to leave the campsite un-attended while hiking etc. I guess you just have to take your chances. I thought about mounting the panels on the Jeep, but there again we sometimes are out and about with the tug, so no charging.
Russ

When I need to leave the panel out and want to leave the trailer I use a bicycle cable lock understanding that if somebody really wants it they'll get it. So far it's worked for me.

[ruscal]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Russ,

Our approach is to have numerous methods of charging our battery. We have a solar panel which is generally plenty when in the sunny parts of the North America. As well we can charge from our tow vehicle as we drive, enough to keep us charged during our typical 3-4 hour drive. As well on occasion we have carried a 1000 watt generator when traveling across Labrador in the spring when the sun is relative low and the sky can be gray.

We have a smart charger as well. When camped with services we will often leave that on and let the smart charger do it's thing.

Like Byron, the best thing we've done is to replace every lamp and fixture with an LED equivalent. For most people Lamps are the largest 12 volt draw. As to the reliability of Smart Converters our last one lasted for 14 years and was still good when we sold the rig. Our present one is 6 years old. Like most parts of our RVs, we leave them powered virtually all the time.

Norm and Ginny,
Having those different options allows for most any camping scenario. I will probably get a solar system as well. I am more limited in panel placement due to the roof airco unit. The rear roof is covered with hatch and Fantastic Fan. I suppose a portable like Byron's should not be ruled out.
Do you have a switch to shut off the solar system to keep it from fooling your smart charger? I wonder how these various systems play together.
Russ

[ruscal]

Originally Posted by Derek Johnson

If you are only charging at just over 13 volts it is going to take a long time. The Progressive Dynamics converter with "Charge Wizard" uses about 13.2 volts as the "float" or maintenance voltage and as high as around 14.2 volts when charging. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but if their data is to be believed it can reduce charging time from something like 10-12 hours to more like 2-3 hours. So if someone has an older converter they may fire up a generator for a few hours and expect it to really do something, but it just isn't enough time for it to get the job done at that voltage. Even worse is if they are using a tradition generator rather than the inverter style, which is not only loud but burns much more gas.

I wouldn't charge the battery at 86% if using a generator--it is fine to let it get as low as 50%.

Derek,
I'll try that technique next boondocking trip. It will be interesting to see if the charger will throw more current into the 50% battery.
Russ

[ruscal]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

When I need to leave the panel out and want to leave the trailer I use a bicycle cable lock understanding that if somebody really wants it they'll get it. So far it's worked for me.

Byron,
The reason you still have your solar panel is because the thieves pick up beds are already full of Honda generators.
Russ

[honda03842]

Russ,

We do not have a switch on the output of our 80 watt solar panel. We do have a switch on the Convertor and the charge line from the Tow Vehicle.

The output of the solar panel switches off by itself when its controller sees the battery as charged.

The reality is I've never worried about the conflict between the panel and convertor. During a week of travel we typically run all systems so the desulfate cycle gets it shot. Much of the time we have only the solar panel on.

Occasionally I turn on the convertor if it's raining, on cloudy days or during high latitude travels like spring time in northern climates. (In Newfoundland we often camp in their Provincal Parks, $9 a night. Most are heavily wooded and the days sometimes cloudy. Assuming we have electricity, and about a 1/3rd of their sites have just electricity, never water or sewer, we run the convertor.)

If it's a rainy day and we're driving I often turn on the tow vehicle's charge line to the trailer. It's quite obvious there's no science to what I do, just feel.

I do check the water level frequently. We carry a drinking size water bottle full of distilled water to top the batteries. One bottle lasts me 6-8 months.

I carried the 1 cubic foot, 1000 watt generator on our cross Labrador trip because I did not know what to expect and at that time we did not have solar.

If we expect really cold weather our rule of thumb is to seek a campground with electricity. If we see snow or sand storms we stay put, it's so much safer, we're retired and it makes Ginny happy. (Nothing's more important than keeping your travel partner happy.)

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by ruscal

Byron,
The only issue that bothers me about portability is theft. I would need to leave the campsite un-attended while hiking etc. I guess you just have to take your chances.

I put a lock on mine up on the roof of the trailer where you can not even see the panel. I have also attended some pretty big music festivals with a lot of people camping all around and left it up there for a number of days and so far (6 years)of doing that its not gone anywhere.

[Glenn Baglo]

I'm still debating. The Coleman 40W portable is on sale again at Can Tire. $124.99 this time.
I have a Honda EU 1000 genset already. Is the panel likely to drop in price? Is there a better panel soon? Do I really want to carry both? Is 40W enough to do the job ( I have all LED lights and find the furnace is the real draw )?
I'm highly unlikely to spend more than that on solar. If only somebody would get it for my birthday or Christmas.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by ruscal

Byron,
The reason you still have your solar panel is because the thieves pick up beds are already full of Honda generators.
Russ

Generator thefts must be a California thing.

[Paul Braun]

Like Byron, I use a 75 watt portable solar panel. The portability is essential in my use as I am often camped under a forest cover. I have the ability to add a 100 foot extension cord to make my panel reach a sunny area.

Theft is always an issue, I do not think that solar panels have the appeal to a local thief that you think they may have. No resale, not a market, limited user knowledge and a bit bulky. They are more likely to be taken by a jealous camper for personal use, that camper could just as likely take your lawn chairs. Also being portable it can be put away when not in use.

I have published a brochure on building such a panel, cost runs $159 US and it is an easy project. Mike Magee featured the unit on this forum, I have just piggy backed on his design. The brochure is called "Solar Made Easy" and is in the Electrical section of the Document Center.

Based on Byron's recommendation my next purchase will be the Trimetric monitor. It looks like the combination of dual 6 volt batteries, portable solar and the Trimetric will make me a happy camper.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

I'm still debating. The Coleman 40W portable is on sale again at Can Tire. $124.99 this time.
I have a Honda EU 1000 genset already. Is the panel likely to drop in price? Is there a better panel soon? Do I really want to carry both? Is 40W enough to do the job ( I have all LED lights and find the furnace is the real draw )?
I'm highly unlikely to spend more than that on solar. If only somebody would get it for my birthday or Christmas.

Glenn I think last winter they had them on sale for $99 if I am not mistaken. I dont see on the Canadian Tire site the size of the panels once folded up.

There is another place called Windturbine.ca that a lot of folks have gotten panels from here in BC that are known to be about the cheapest prices in town - they are on the Island but if I am not mistaken they do free del'v to the mainland.

They currently have a sale on - you can get a 20" x 30" 50 watt panel for $54 or a smaller 30 Watt panel 19 x 20" for only $33.00. They have a sale on the small controller you would need for them as well $19.

[Paul Braun]

I would recommend using two 30 watt panels. I believe you could install a simple hinge between the two of them. This makes for a nice compact unit for easier storage and with them in the closed position you have some level of protection. I believe with 60 watts you will have the opportunity to get a full charge every day. Of course there are so many variables such as time of year, shade, daily usage, battery condition, quality of controller that it is impossible to predict. Less that 60 watts and I would be concerned.

Perhaps someone else can chime in on what size they believe is the "optimum" panel?

[honda03842]

Byron, I built 120 watt solar panel for our Sunline. Really not too difficult, the major issue is handling of the thin and fragile cells. Today I saw 160 watts of cells on eBay for $43, 36-8+ amp cells where I bought mine.

I bought tabbed cells, meaning with the wires already on each cell. With the wires on it's just a question of soldering the wires to the next cell.

It's a fun project and may have advantages for some people because you can arrange the 36 cells for your own needs.

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Byron, I built 120 watt solar panel for our Sunline. Really not too difficult, the major issue is handling of the thin and fragile cells. Today I saw 160 watts of cells on eBay for $43, 36-8+ amp cells where I bought mine.

I bought tabbed cells, meaning with the wires already on each cell. With the wires on it's just a question of soldering the wires to the next cell.

It's a fun project and may have advantages for some people because you can arrange the 36 cells for your own needs.

Thanks Norm.
My 65 Watt panel that I can move around works great for me. Since I have not only the house battery to charge and a second battery used for ham radio and pressed into duty sometimes charging electronic devices a portable panel that I plug into either batter and move around works best for me. I park the trailer in the shade when possible.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Carol H

I put a lock on mine up on the roof of the trailer where you can not even see the panel. I have also attended some pretty big music festivals with a lot of people camping all around and left it up there for a number of days and so far (6 years)of doing that its not gone anywhere.

A friend borrowed my 40W panel (the same one baglo showed, that I got for $100) because of a bad battery. We were at the Salmon Arm Roots and Blues Festival, camping 4 nights, and never once did I fear it getting stolen. I really doubt there are that many folks of that evil nature out there, or at least out camping.

Originally Posted by Carol H

There is another place called Windturbine.ca that a lot of folks have gotten panels from here in BC that are known to be about the cheapest prices in town - they are on the Island but if I am not mistaken they do free del'v to the mainland.

They currently have a sale on - you can get a 20" x 30" 50 watt panel for $54 or a smaller 30 Watt panel 19 x 20" for only $33.00. They have a sale on the small controller you would need for them as well $19.

That sounds like good pricing. You could put together a couple 30W like Paul said, and that would make for better storages. Plus, you could use some good tough cab tire cabling so it could handle foot traffic on it, then just connect to your 7-pin connector.

[rabbit]

I have an 80watt tether to graze rig similar to Byron's altho I sometimes bungee it to the front rock guard if the dogs are having a heavy macramé day with their tie out ropes. Depends on the season and angle of the sun also. If the sun track is high and no shade the rock guard mount makes sense. When the sun is low, I move the panel around to avoid shadows on the cells. I also have a pigtail made up of half a jumper cable lugged to a two pole flat connector that's the complement of the one exiting the cord on the panel. Gives me some solar charging for my truck battery in fall and winter. Now that I'm retired and don't drive 400mi. a week, sitting around feeding the vampire loads takes a good starter battery down pretty fast. I don't worry about conflict with the converter. It's on a breaker but the "switch" is when I pull the plug on the electricity tree and move to an offgrid site. I don't have a genset. I'm hoping I can get an honest 24 amphours of recharging daily in high summer as I recently installed a 12DVC/120VAC Norcold fridge and would like to make 48 hours offgrid before dropping to 50% battery SOC. We'll see.

jack