Id plumbing part - Fiberglass RV


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Old 01-09-2013, 04:12 PM   #1
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Id plumbing part

OK, you plumbers, what is it and if I can get it, where? It's marked with the IAPMO shield (plumbing and sanitation systems lister) and nothing else. I bought a Thetford Aqua Magic V to replace the Valterra La Toilette (I have other words for it!!) in the Burro. When I pulled the LA POS, I found it had no floor flange. Holddown bolts were thru the floor into a T-nut and one was almost rusted thru. In an attempt to block shower water from entering under the base, there was a nice fillet of silicone completely around the base. This what was holding the pot down. Short section of plastic pipe cemented to bottom of pot slipped down in this fancy neoprene bushing. The two raised rings seat round an internal lip in the riser from the black tank. The thinner upper wall of this chingus is slightly damaged at top but will seal with the PCV floor flange I got a Lowe's. I've looked up and down in plumbing parts, gaskets, etc. and typed in the words bushing, slip joint etc. No Joy. Sometimes you get the honey; sometimes the sting. I'd like to get a new one if possible but I don't want dig up a landfill in Elkhart.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:33 PM   #2
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:46 PM   #3
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Thanks Tom. You're an eye and frustration saver! I think the STS-4 may be the current equivalent. I does incorporate the compression seal which was not used in the "paesan" install from Burro. I could use the chingus I've got plus the Thetford seal on the depression in the closet flange, but first I'll investigate a retail source for this item. Thanks Tom.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:06 PM   #4
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Try here Ameri-Kart 3" Rubber Inlet Grommet - Holding Tank Fittings - Black Water Tanks - Plumbing
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:21 PM   #5
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Me thinks you nailed it , Raz.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:31 PM   #6
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Yea, RV plumbing appears to be in a world of it's own. I bet there is special license plumbers need just to work on it.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:28 PM   #7
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!WOW! That's the exact doodah, Peter, and it looks like they sell retail. For the price, I'm going to replace. I never thought about searching "grommet" but indeed the grommet walls are what keeps this sleeve from falling into the tank. It also spans and seals the endgrain of the floor opening and the slight gap between floor and tank or tank riser. Now that I think about it, I think there's no riser and the grommet just seats around a 4" hole in the tank.

I got the hew hopper at Eastern Marine Superstore. $129, which isn't earthshaking but not bad for over-the-counter vs. mail order. Like the "knife" valve with the seal on the Thetford; hope it holds water as a odor barrier. No way the simple paddle of the Valterra could hold water in the hopper for more than a couple minutes. All very fascinating and soon to be less so, I hope. Thanks again both of you for taking the time.

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Old 01-09-2013, 06:43 PM   #8
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I'd be very interested in any info and pictures of your toilet replacement process. I'm thinking of replacing mine was well with a nicer, perhaps porcelain unit. My lid is quite cracked from my sitting on it while I brush my teeth, I guess I shouldn't be sitting on it, it's so flexible. Also the flush valve leaks which I sort of fixed by installing an inline ball valve.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:00 PM   #9
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I also have a shutoff in the line and I'm keeping it. One time replacing the valve and vacuum breaker on the Valterra was enuf and it continued to seep. I think you're familiar with the rib crushing experience of Gina and Per Walthinson's saga of the toilet from hell. This is exactly the same unit that Per removed and replaced but the lower section which Per shows stuck to the shower pan in his thread is "unitized" (cemented to the upper hopper section ) on mine.

I am counting my lucky stars that mine was done this way as I won't be hacking up and rebulding the shower pan. I have the honor of having the earlier trailer [Per's is a 2000 model] and I'm surprised that the installation method devolved from bad to worse in that time. I hope yours is also unitized and comes out in one piece. I will post a couple of pix tomorrow or Sat. which you can compare to Per's fotos on his "toilet from hell" thread. I hope this helps. My photos and Per's will tell all, I think. I don't think the complications will increase much with a porcelain unit but perhaps it's best to get the old out first and do a bit of head-scratchin' before springing for the new one.

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Old 01-12-2013, 12:03 PM   #10
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ThomasE if you stop by again, I have pulled the old and "dry" installed the new by which I mean I am waiting shipment of the item IDd by Raz so used the old one to center and locate a standard closet flange from Lowe's with 1/4"X20thrd flthd bolts and teenuts. I will demount the flange and add the grommet to the tank, reseat the flange on bedding or caulk to seal against water migration under the flange [can't employ the Escondido kludge of putting a fillet of silicone around the toilet base with the Thetford as it has a relieving port in the back of the base which is fine with me]. I'll take pictures and post as a "how to" sequence on a new thread with the words "Burro" and 'toilet" prominent in the title. You won't miss much except the head-scratching, parts-picking, whacking off bolts with cold chisel, and cursing.

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Old 01-13-2013, 01:19 AM   #11
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Jack, looking forward to your pictures, especially of the floor with the toilet removed. When Per replaced his toilet, I recall he had to build up another platform with fiberglass, that's the part I'm kind of worried about doing and would like to avoid. I have experience with house plumbing and replacing house toilets, but this looks quite different.... Tom
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:09 PM   #12
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Plumb[ing] confused?

Thomas, sending 3 pix of the base of the Valterra ("La Toilette" model) which I have removed for replacement. Please look at both the underside and side view giving attention to the line running entirely around the base approx. 3" up from bottom. Although my example is "unitized" with a plastic adhesive (sqeezeout can be seen in the underside view), it was injection-molded in two pieces. All below the line which runs around the exterior is a separate piece or "saddle" into which the upper section nests.

What is of interest is that the projection of Per W's shower pan above the floor is precisely the same positive shape as this plastic saddle. I can only surmise that the "bottom" of a Valterra toilet was used as a "plug" (postiive shape) for laying up the female mold (negative shape) for the shower pan used in Per's Burro (and presumably some others with "late" YOMs. How the "upper" of Per's rig was secured in the molded-in saddle of the shower pan I have no idea as it does not follow from my theory how the floor bolts could have held it down. His photo #2 in "RMA Toilet from Hell" thread indicates that he wrenched off the upper hopper section with relatively little difficulty cf. to what comes after.

In Per's photo 3#, please note that the securing bolts which would we would expect to see slotted into a closet flange are thru the trailer floor where the shower pan and the "camel humps" saddle have been cut away. The large tank grommet which Raz identified can be seen "lining" the hole in the floor. Also note at upper left hand, a triangular-raised area incorporated into the floor pan layup to put the vent stack seal above the base level of pan. My (presumably) earlier shower pan DOES NOT have this moulded-in feature; rather the vent stack is sealed at the level of floor of pan.


To sum up CSI: Burro Toilet Install, neither of us was or is thrilled with what Per found. I'm only speculating from photos the process by which things came to that state; I may be missing something important. Second, I have found, to my relative relief, that my earlier install was done, if not conventionally, at least in a manner somewhat easier of correction when a new hopper is desired as one is presented with an intact flat-bottomed shower pan. I wish I could reassure you with absolute certainty that you don't also have the showerpan (as well as the toilet) from hell. Your trailer is much closer in age to Per's than to mine but it is not even logical to guess whether one shower pan design was replaced by a second or if both were available and used concurrently. The common denominators of our situations are: Escondido Burro trailers, the original Valterra commode, the Thetford which we wish to install.


Most important: Look for that raised triangle at the rear left hand corner of the shower pan thru which the vent stack protrudes. If you have that feature, I think there's a chance you have Per's style of shower pan. If you don't have that feature, I think there's a chance you have the style used in my Burro. I believe you should liberally apply penetrating oil to the nuts on the floor bolts, give it 24 hrs. and then back off nuts and see what lifts off the shower pan and what doesn't. Hope this gives you a starting point to ponder the outs and ins? If you wish we can talk by PM later after I post all the steps of my new install. Stay dry.

jack
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:20 PM   #13
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My shower pan does have that raised triangular area where the vent stack emerges, so you're probably right my set up is more like Per's than yours. I'll have to wait until I have more time to see what's under there. I'm hesitant to pull out the toilet until I have a complete plan in place. The toilet bolts are rusty and I'm afraid if I remove and try to put back what's there, it will break or start leaking.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:03 PM   #14
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We know Burro was notorious when it came to quality control at the end of their production. It's possible there's a huge difference between the model years 1998 & 2000 and that one fix for one year won't work perfectly for a different model year.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:28 PM   #15
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2000 YOM is smack in the middle of Escondido production, Donna, but still a valid conclusion concerning Burro and no doubt other marques with less suspect production standards. It is very likely that Thomas will have Per W.'s strange shower pan.

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Old 01-14-2013, 08:47 PM   #16
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After reading a whole bunch of threads, Burro did some really strange things. Not only plumbing but electrical as well. It just really important that folks don't tear into something without checking all items out. IMHO it would be sad if owners spent money/time/effort and aren't successful. I'd almost feel responsible....
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:14 PM   #17
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Burro did some really strange things without reading even a single thread LOL. I'm giving attention to the very real possibility that Thomas should NOT attempt the repair if the tearout is likely to uncover an install similar to PW's. Thankyou for your concern, DD.

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Old 01-15-2013, 04:15 PM   #18
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Thomas, fotos of the Burro toilet refit follow along with a brief gloss on what's shown/happening in each.

[To Burro owners who may happen on this thread, please DO NOT assume that Escondido Burro used a single method of plumbing rv toilets (with specific reference to the configuration of the shower pan beneath the toilet) nor that the refit illustrated is compliant with either current industry standards or sanitation codes governing rv plumbing. I cannot take responsibility for your understanding, interpretation, or use of what you see here nor can I guarantee that the results of the choices and decisions you make will be satisfactory. I do not represent myself as a professional plumber and normally would not consider this disclaimer necessary in a public forum composed largely of amateurs. DonnaD expresses the opinion that my experience with Burro plumbing is a special case which warrants special scrutiny and caution. So be it. As she would say: YMMV]

#1. The old Valterra pulled showing the ABS riser solvent-welded to the botton of toilet where closet flange seal would normally be found. This piece of pipe a friction fit in the black tank grommet.

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#2. Removing old toilet revealed a flat floor to shower pan without the saddle-like protuberances which Per W. found. Used a router and piloted rabbeting bit to put a 3/8" wide X 3/16" deep step on the edge of the hole in showerpan to accept "bolster" on underside of PVC closet flange (next shot) and allow flange to seat to floor. Closet flanges have this feature to greater or lesser degree to provide strength to the cone-shaped seal cavity on the upper side. Other ways to provide clearance for the bolster would be champfer bit in router or drum sander in drill motor.

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#3. Neoprene grommet was placed in hole in black tank and 3 1/2" dia end of closet flange pressed into grommet to locate for drilling of bolt holes thru pan and floor. Closet flange removed and bolt holes enlarged to 5/16" to take barrel of tee-nut from underneath floor. Tee-nuts were "pulled" into underside floor with a 1/4"X20thrd hex bolt and socket from above. [SS would be good here but I used plated steel]

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#4. Grommet sprayed with Canola oil and placed such that lower ring inside tank/upper ring on top. Altho the old grommet came out easily, the new one did not go in easily! I also heated the new grommet to improve flexibility and needed all my fingers and the rounded end of an adjustable wrench as a prybar to get it in.

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Continued next post.

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Old 01-15-2013, 04:33 PM   #19
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Burro toilet refit continued

#5. Closet flange and home-grown neoprene gasket]

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#6. Neoprene gasket in place.

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#7. Closet flange bolted down. Closet flange oriented such that hold down bolts for hopper are in the open t-slots because more resistant to breaking and deflecting than the longer closed slots. Not necessary to do it this way if you don't wish to. Transverse spacing is also a bit more flexible this way in case the holes in the potty are not precisely on 6" centers.

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#8. Threads of all bolts including holddowns "kissed" with antiseize compound. Anyone who has watched this stuff spread over everything knows what the plastic bag is for. Keep some mineral spirits handy to get it off your fingers or whatever you touch.

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Continued next post.

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Old 01-15-2013, 04:37 PM   #20
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You have been busy Jack.....nice documentation.
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