Power usages

[hotfishtacos]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

From your posts it doesn't sound like it.
Let ask one more question then I'm through with this thread.

How many variables are involved in charging and using a battery?

Byron, that was really just a smart*&& question. You seem to spend all of your energy trying to convince everyone that you are smarter than everyone else and if anyone disagrees with you you start in with your education and experience and then belittle their opinion. In my opinion retirement isn't working well for you. Posters like you are why I don't spend much time on this forum.

Steve

[jwcolby54]

Bob, the masses aren't out of step, nor are they in step. Milling around smartly as we said in the navy. Blissfully unaware would be closer to the truth. For whatever reason you come to this thread for the sole purpose of defending the status quo. It is easily demonstrated that the PD charger is less than effective. I just read their specs and they guarantee to provide a 'nominal voltage of 13.6v'. Look up the definition of nominal.

In the meantime the battery manufacturer says you need 14.8 v to correctly charge their battery.

But this 'guarantee' is in fact good enough for 98% of the people.

I'm sorry, that is just sad!

I understand why a certain political party has such disdain for the masses!

[jwcolby54]

Byron,

At least one more than you are capable of dealing with?

Or two? Or both of my answers?

Jes yankin your chain!

[Glenn Baglo]

You, if nothing else, seem to be getting a charge out of this thread.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

You, if nothing else, seem to be getting a charge out of this thread.

Perhaps i have a strange sense of humor, but i thought that was amusing.

[Glenn Baglo]

It was supposed to be.
Most I know about electronics is to carry spare batteries for my flashlight. Got no dog.

[jwcolby54]

I will be putting two 100w solar panels on my scamp roof. Byron will tell me how 80 watts is more than sufficient for everyone if we would just focus on using less electricity. In the end i Will get a charge out of that as well.

I have a homeless friend, living in a tent in the woods. I am specing minimal solar system for him. A battery, one 100w panel, a charger. Truly in his case more than he needs, but it will give him 'free' power from then on. He was going to buy a generator. Haul gas!

No PD charger though!!!

[mszabo]

Solar panels work great in the woods

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by mszabo

Solar panels work great in the woods

He has a full sun area just feet from his tent. Should be a great setup. I told him he'd be selling power to the neighbors.

[honda03842]

In wiring our trailer our goal was to cluster the key elements as close to each other as possible to minimize wire voltage drop.

I installed our PD 35 amp Converter and 1200 watt Inverter in our trailer. They are both under the front couch, really close to the battery and beside each other. The wires run from the battery to the converter and jump from converter to inverter, an attempt to keep everything as short as possible, actually about 2 feet of wire from Converter to battery.

The wires from the roof top solar panel have a short run to the solar controller. The controller is located near the roof over the couch. From the Solar controller it's a short run to the output of the Converter. Solar charging of the battery uses the same heavy wire the converter uses to charge the battery.

The reality is we rarely use the 1200 watt inverter, just too much power. Instead we have a number of small inverters. Our most common Inverter application is run the TV and sat dish. They use aout 50 watts together and easily run off one 150 watt cigarette lighter type inverter.

To support the 12 volt devices like the small inverter, wifi hotspot, and Endless Breeze fan, we have four 12 volt outlets spread thru our Scamp.

We have 9 AC outlets pairs. Three of the outlets have USB charging ports (6 USB charging ports in total, that handle charging our Tablet, phones and Nooks) when we're hooked to AC.

We also carry a 150 watt inverter in the car. We can use it to charge our computer as we drive, useful if we're going into boondock. We also have USB ports in the car to charge our phones as we drive. Our computer is a netbook and uses very little power, when new it would run for 8 hours without recharge.

Like many we have 3 ways to charge our battery, from our 80 watt solar panel, from our tow vehicle and from our PD Converter. We typically only charge from the car (switch selectable) when it's a rainy or overcast day since the solar charges on sunny days nicely as we drive.

We have enhanced our lighting going to all LEDs, no 120VAC lights at all. Our Scamp came with 4 incandescent lights and one fluorescent light on the inside. We have added four additional LED lamps (2 of them LED spots) and replaced the fluorescent with a LED Bar. In addition two of the more heavily used LED Lamps have double LED bulbs to provide twice the illumination. Of course we rarely light all the lamps but as we age like a lot of light/contrast where we're reading hence the double bulbed fixtures.

The next electrical upgrade we contemplate is a Trojan 12 volt battery to replace our group 24 battery.

The only thing I would do different is not include the big Inverter since we rarely use it.

[jwcolby54]

Norm, sounds like a well thought out install. I can't do anything about my PD location, but my solar install should end up similar. I would like to get a small inverter and wire a couple of outlets to it. 300 watts sine should handle all my needs. Sitting at the front wall, big cables from the batteries. Solar charger at front wall next to inverter. Big cables to batteries.

The po changed all lights to led except florescent over stove. They also added a spot under each cabinet in the table area.

My intent is to have ac when not plugged in, for my cpap, laptop and tv monitor, right at the outlets.

It seems the easiest way is just drive them from an inverter at all times. In my opinion that should be factory installed, but the 98% never leave the koa so why bother right?

[SharonM]

Hey Norm -- Am I right to assume you "moved" yourconverter from under the dinette bench to under the couch? If so, is that a super major project or can an RV shop do that for me without costing a fortune?

S.

[honda03842]

Jow.
I installed a Cpap machine set up for my son in his Scamp 13. Made a folding shelf next to the bed with a 12 volt outlet under the shelf.

Many of the cpaps will run on 12 volts.

He has two switch selectable batteries and a 70 watt solar panel.

Sharon.
I have don't view it as a big job but I'm cheap, working for just room and board. You could ask.

[Bob Miller]

Wow, apparently Progressive Dynamics, who has been in business for 50 years and building converters for 20 years, doesn't know how to build a converter that will "correctly" charge a battery. Hoodathunkit?. (LOL)

This sounds like an opportunity for someone to show them how to do it right. In the meantime, contrary to information in earlier posts (#42), here is a clip from the PD web site indicating that the charge voltage for batteries below 90% of charge is actually 14.4 volts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tired of replacing batteries? Don't let this happen to your customers!
Customer complaints are "history" when installing a Progressive Dynamics converter with the patented automatic 4-stage Charge Wizard® system. The Charge Wizard has been shown to increase the battery life by 2 to 3 times or more.
Our patented Charge Wizard 4-stage system uses microprocessor technology to add intelligent charging capability. It constantly monitors the RV battery and automatically adjusts the converter output voltage based on the battery's charge status – designed to eliminate battery over & under charging problems associated with most other battery chargers and provide rapid yet safe battery recharging after dry camping.
The Charge Wizard constantly monitors battery voltage and battery usage then selects one of the following four operating modes to properly charge and maintain the battery.
BOOST Mode 14.4 Volts - Rapidly brings the RV battery up to 90% of full charge.
NORMAL Mode 13.6 Volts - Safely completes the charge.
STORAGE Mode 13.2 Volts - Maintains charge with minimal gassing or water loss.
EQUALIZATION Mode 14.4 Volts - Every 21 hours for a period of 15 minutes prevents battery stratification & sulfation - the leading cause of battery failure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW: What's koa???? Sounds like a disease that most of us avoid at all costs.
I think I caught that by accident for couple of nights back in the mid 80's but I rapidly developed an immunity.

But, like the rest of the 98%er's, I am in step with the world.

[Jared J]

I do agree about wire size being small. When I had a poor battery in my scamp that wouldn't charge fully, the 10 gauge wire was so hot I could barely touch it, and that was with the old 15 amp converter (with a 30 amp fuse installed, it blew 25 amp fuses?!).

I ran 4 gauge on a 50 amp breaker with the pd4045.

[jwcolby54]

Sharon, i suspect it would be expensive. All of the wiring radiates from that location so would have to be redone. My plan is to not touch the existing stuff, and build a new power center up front.

The existing 12v outlets are fine. Install an inverter, pull ac wires down each side and install new outlets which run off the inverter. I will need to add a tiny breaker box so the ac can be switched if necessary.

It is really the cables between the batteries and inverter / solar charger which have to be carefully managed. A 300 watt inverter will pull 300/12 amps plus 15% worst case - 25 + 4 amps.

As discussed earlier, the wire size and length will determine voltage drops. The solar charger is supercritical. Using this calculator

Voltage Drop Calculator

My objective is to get 14.8 v to the battery at 16 amps which is the max current of two 100w panels. Add 7 amps for an additional 'moveable' - so 23 amps. Allow 8 feet of wire.

Wire material copper
Wire size 6
Voltage 15
Phase DC
Single set
Distance 8 ft
Load current 23 amps

Yields 14.85 v delivered to the battery

Use remote sense and remote temp sense and i should be good to go.

Notice that if i just throw in 10 ga the voltage delivered drops to 14.6 v. When dealing with the charger, 'close enough' ISN'T! The batteries want 14.8 volts at high currents for the bulk charge phase. NOT 14.4 or god forbid 13.6 'nominal' (whatever that may mean).

But with the electronics right on the front wall, the wiring becomes manageable. And with an aftermarket solar charger where the manufacturer actually listens to the battery manufacturers, and does what they say, the solution is easily obtainable.

CORRECT charging, not 'good enough to get through the night, backed up by a generator'.

[jwcolby54]

Bob, c'mon. This stuff is easy BUT you have to start with the BATTERY not the charger. To fully charge a battery you have to feed it 14.8 volts. Read my lips! 14 . EIGHT volts.

Now read the specs you just so proudly waved in my face.

Ford has built cars longer than any other manufacturer on the planet and they were killing their owners. Do you remember the pinto? How about the explorer?

So knock it off with the 'been building it x years crap! I ain't buying.

I am an engineer and i sit in on meetings every week where we discuss compromise.

If you are interested in learning what is really required to CORRECTLY charge a battery, please stick around, do your homework and participate. Otherwise throw away your meters and go 'be happy' in another thread! Cause i am dog tired of arguing with you.

Bob please do not take offense, but if you want to learn what PD is NEVER going to tell you, you have to accept that they have their own agenda. If your battery dies from poor charging, PD isn't buying you a new one. It is up to you and i to do our homework. I have done my homework. I have provided links to point you to sources to get educated. Please stop and go do that. Then absolutely do come back and contribute to this thread.

A hint to get you started. 14.8 volts high current, AT the battery terminals, temperature compensated. That is from the horses mouth. The battery manufacturer NOT PD.

[jwcolby54]

back to the progressive dynamics charge wizard, I will say that it is a better solution than the charger without the wizard. My biggest problem with it isthat they did not go 2 14.8 volts. Had they done that they would have done it just about everything they could with what they had to work with. Keep in mind that even with the wizard there is no remote sense and then No temperature compensation..

They have no way of knowing how long or what gauge wire the batteries are wired to their charger with. having that wizard is better than not having it. With the wizard an otherwise mediocre charger becomes pretty good. at least it will no longer ruin the batteries, it simply will not charge them all the way up. So in the end the wizard is a good addition, well worth the money spent.

I will likely by the wizard myself simply because it does at least do most of what it needs to do. And the base charger will no longer be ruining my batteries.