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Old 08-09-2021, 10:25 AM   #21
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Name: RogerDat
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Originally Posted by Ervin in Portland View Post
Confirmed by scientific research. As a licensed psychotherapist who works in addiction medicine, I have seen SPECT scans (like a MRI) of brains from smokers and they have significantly less neuronal connecting and blood flow in many significant areas of the brain. They also have less car ownership, less home ownership and overall less social-economic growth compared to non-smokers. Smoking is very limiting.
Cause or effect? Smoking has for a long time been more prevalent the lower one goes on the economic ladder. Less car ownership would be an expected result of moving down the economic ladder. As would more physical and less intellectual ways of making a living.

Have know too many really smart skilled trades or academics that smoked to figure smoking was a determining factor to economic or mental abilities. It is at its core an addictive substance that is enjoyable to many, most often started without thinking of long term consequences.

I was always sort of annoyed at how easily the state raised taxes on tobacco products. It is a tax that typically borne by lower economic groups, voted on because it only screws over 25% of the people so the other 75% of the voting public is ok with it. Here in Mich. they even applied the full pack tax on rolling tobacco used by those who make their own cigarettes to save money. Knowing that because smoking is addictive increasing taxes may cause some minor reduction is use but won't hurt tax revenues because it isn't as though all the smokers will suddenly quit because taxes went up 50 cents a pack.

So a regressive tax, applied to an addictive product, secure in the knowledge it won't hurt revenue because the taxed product is addictive and people are unlikely to quit.

I will say the issue of is it bad for ones health that was certainly not a given when I was young, and smoking being "bad" was contrary to general opinion for those just a bit older than myself. Oddly enough smokers cost health insurance providers less. Health care gets very expensive for long term chronic conditions such as heart disease. Smokers don't survive as long. Same applies to health care later in life. Non-smoker may keep plugging away for 10 years with multiple health issues, smoker dies after the first or second episode much more frequently.

Canadian and Swedish study of long term costs of health care for smokers. Non smokers get a bypass and later stents, maybe another procedure or two. Survive two or three minor heart attacks. Smoker has single heart attack that is more likely to be fatal. And poorer outcomes from treatments translates into not living for as many treatments to be administered.
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Old 08-09-2021, 10:26 AM   #22
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Name: Ervin
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Originally Posted by robf View Post
Careful there - correlation is not causality.
More accurate to say, "Smokers are limited."

Anyway, as a former smoker I have to agree, smoking messes with your brain.
Humans are the smokers, so I would state that saying smoking and smokers are limited is the exact same thing.

I think I just saw a hair split
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Old 08-09-2021, 10:45 AM   #23
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Name: RogerDat
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Some hunters leave a clean camp and don't fire a round unless they have a clean shot. Others shoot signs and leave a camp looking like a frat house lawn the morning after the big game.

Just as I'm sure some backpackers see the impact from campers and RV's as being extremely negative due to the actions of the few.

I admire someone that takes the time to clean up and leave it better than they found it, those that look for an existing fire ring rather than dotting the landscape with blackened holes. Admire those who go back into the woods to find fallen wood or bring their own in from local sources.

I just wish public shame was enough to prevent people "giraffe grazing" the park. That is when every stick or branch to the height of a kid on an adults shoulders has been stripped. Park looks like a herd of giraffe grazed it. Unfortunately applying public shame carries some risk these days. Telling a someone who has been drinking all afternoon that cutting down that green tree for firewood is just stupid and a waste bordering on evil is likely to get an unpleasant response.

Heck my brother in law was threatened with violence for asking campers to lower the volume an hour after quiet time. He felt compelled to let them know that the Viet Cong had tried to kill him plenty of times without success what were they planning that they thought would work better. Shouldn't even need to tell someone at 11:30 to turn the radio down and stop yelling. Shouldn't need to tell people to bury their waste, or take out their trash, to not wantonly destroy things such as trees. Even worse to know that telling them will likely not get a positive response or backing from your fellow campers.

I suppose one could see if anything has an address on it and box it up to mail COD to the address. Have heard of rural townships doing that when people dump their trash along side back roads.

I doubt we can really protect the parks from the sheer numbers using them beyond a very basic level. However protecting wilderness as a reservoir for plants and animals for those willing to do no impact camping would be a good thing in my opinion. I can't backpack any more so I need to leave the deep woods to those who can, not get a paved road to the pristine forest so I can drive there.

Look at Zion in Utah, you have to take a shuttle bus through the park because the traffic was so bad it was toxic to sit in it and putting in an interstate to allow for the traffic seemed counter productive to seeing and enjoying the natural beauty
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