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Old 04-29-2016, 05:16 PM   #41
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I am fortunate to live where we can find good hiking trails that allow dogs off leash. I have been hiking with my off leash dogs for some 40 years here and I hike a lot. In all this time I have not had one bad experience with dogs where their human also had them off leash. The only issues we have ever had (and they are very few) are where the offending dog is on leash. Now, this doesn't solve the issues at hand, but in my experience if a dog is going to become well trained, socialized, exercised, and a well mannered happy camper, off leash experiences have simply got to be part of the mix. That said, I would never let my dogs run loose in town, at a mall, at a busy campground, etc.

RMNP is an hour drive from my house. I don't hike there, I don't visit there. Hiking with my dogs on leash is like showering in a raincoat. Worse, is isn't fair to them. But, I can see that the NPS simply has to have a leash law on their trails. There are simply too many idiots who are irresponsible, and worse, there are a vocal minority of people who simply do not like dogs, are fearful, and complain about it at every opportunity.

I support the NPS in spirit and with my tax dollars, and, in fact, would like to see them funded way more than congress does now. But I will probably never visit one again and that makes me sad. Why they can't have one or two designated off leash trails in each park for those of us who travel with our dogs is simply beyond me. Sign it well, and the dog haters among us can avoid it. Everybody wins!
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Old 04-29-2016, 06:28 PM   #42
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...... but in my experience if a dog is going to become well trained, socialized, exercised, and a well mannered happy camper, off leash experiences have simply got to be part of the mix. That said, I would never let my dogs run loose in town, at a mall, at a busy campground, etc.

Why they can't have one or two designated off leash trails in each park for those of us who travel with our dogs is simply beyond me. Sign it well, and the dog haters among us can avoid it. Everybody wins!
I 100% agree with that, that a dog needs to be properly socialized, and to be able to run off leash a lot. I am very fortunate to have one of Canada's largest urban parks, most of which is off least minutes from my yard. Plus, I walk all the way there on an off leash pathway. I am supposed to have him on a lead crossing the one road I have to, as well as a pedestrian bridge over another, but I have him tightly at heel the whole time.

I think that is a good idea, that all parks provide some trail where off leash is allowed. Even make it a lesser trail, in that there is no good viewing or whatever, but a place they can get their exercise. I know if our dog does not get a minimum of an hour a day off leash, he starts to bounce of walls, and follows our every move until we do take him out.

When backcountry canoe camping in our National Parks, dogs are usually allowed, but when out of the boat do need to be on leash. For the most part I do abide by these rules, but I usually at some point in the evening I ask any fellow campers if it is okay if he is off leash, because he will do as I say, and most are fine with that. Deer in our NPs are just as bothersome as south of the border, and come right into camp looking for handouts. I take pride when other campers can't believe Jasper doesn't chase these deer. It is not that he doesn't want to, he just knows he is not allowed. People always say how much they enjoyed his behaviour and having him around.
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Old 04-29-2016, 06:31 PM   #43
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o It's the lack of a place to excersize the dog thats my concern. A well exercised dog makes a far better neighbor. Unfortunately there are few if any humans that can tire a dog that's tied to a 6 foot leash. Raz
A six foot leash maybe won't do it, but many humans can drive a Family Truckster...

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Old 04-29-2016, 07:44 PM   #44
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I agree that dogs should be banned from all parks. My wife and I were attacked by a coupe of collared dogs while in a park on a remote trail.

Also while at state campground which allow dogs, the pet dogs sometimes bark in the night and keep everyone up.

I have a friend that was attacked by a pack of collared dogs while out jogging. Put him up a tree.

If you have a pet you love, great. Put them on a leash and keep them in your RV at night. Also pick up their excrement.
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Old 04-29-2016, 08:11 PM   #45
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Sometimes it would be great if there was doggy day care nearby!

Denece, There you go, a business opportunity staring you right in the face.

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Old 04-29-2016, 08:40 PM   #46
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I agree that dogs should be banned from all parks. My wife and I were attacked by a coupe of collared dogs while in a park on a remote trail.
I certainly hope your injuries were not too bad.

The people that own dogs that would attack should be the ones who get banned, which would keep out their dogs as well.

To outright ban dogs because of rare instances of conflict with other humans would not differ from the banning of people if someone attacks another. I have never been attacked by a dog in my life, and I am around many of them all the time. I have been attacked and threatened by humans on a few occasions.

I know we all have our own differing opinions on this, but for me, I just love being around well trained and behaved dogs, as well as children and adults.

I have definitely seen some instances of yappy barking dogs camping, and I don't like it either. But more often I have had people cause more noise disruptions in various forms. Heck, most National Parks still allow generators at certain periods of the day, and they are WAY more annoying than anyone's pet.

I think what irks me the most, is that I (along with Jasper) get lumped into the same category by some, as the few poorly trained dogs that cause problems. I took it upon myself to offer good training from the day he came into my life, and take great pride in his demeanour amongst other people. To disallow me to camp with my dog, is like disallowing everyone to drive just because there are a few reckless jerks on the road.

Methinks it is time for a cocktail. Cheers all!
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Old 04-30-2016, 05:33 AM   #47
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Let's ban dogs because they bark and poop everywhere.

Let's ban generators because they're noisy and pollute.

Let's ban alcohol because people drinking it, get loud, and lose control.

Let's ban large RVs because people run there engines all the time.

Let's ban bon fires because the smoke drifts into other peoples campsites

Let's ban radios and boom boxes because people play them too loud.

Let's ban children because they make noise and run out of control around the campground.

Let's require quiet hours to start at 9:00 because that's when I go to bed.

There, problem solved. Raz
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Old 04-30-2016, 06:15 AM   #48
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The only solution is go where no man has gone before, Me I like people, I think I would be bored if there was not activity around me. I like to see kids play, I like seeing all the different animals. Generators, whats the difference between the sounds of golf carts or 4 wheelers or chain saws, people going and coming all day parking setting up. It won`t be a very long time before I have peace and quiet for an eternity, so whats the rush with the quiet stuff. IMO. Carl
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Old 04-30-2016, 07:29 AM   #49
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Let's ban dogs because they bark and poop everywhere.

Let's ban generators because they're noisy and pollute.

Let's ban alcohol because people drinking it, get loud, and lose control.

Let's ban large RVs because people run there engines all the time.

Let's ban bon fires because the smoke drifts into other peoples campsites

Let's ban radios and boom boxes because people play them too loud.

Let's ban children because they make noise and run out of control around the campground.

Let's require quiet hours to start at 9:00 because that's when I go to bed.

There, problem solved. Raz
Jeepers Raz, I could simplify that whole post quite easily.

Let's ban RV camping.
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Old 04-30-2016, 07:46 AM   #50
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I think the thing to consider here, is that camping will always involve pets, children, some alcohol, generally people doing what they see as fun things. This is not going to change. Parts of all of these (and many other) things are going to irritate and bother others.

Everyone needs to do their part in ensuring that what they are enjoying, affects others as little as possible. We need to take this mix, and find a way to coexist with other campers.
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Old 04-30-2016, 08:11 AM   #51
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I too have a diabetic niece who is now in her early 20's, and they have always had a dog. I have never once heard reference to there being any potential danger, though they too are responsible pet owners, and I am more that happy to care for their dog if they need to go camping without it.

Byron, you show an obvious dislike to dogs, I am curious as to why. You seem to think every dog will bite, and that is just not true. I have had a dog my entire adult life, and none of them has once bitten anyone, nor another dog. I can't imagine my dog ever biting. Man, even if tormented terribly he may snap, but never bite.

Don't get me wrong, I have seen it happen, but it is very rare. Others have mentioned here, but in most cases what some take as biting, is just a warning, not meant to injure at all. I have seen WAY more people react in an aggressive manner than dogs.

I do not expect everyone to love dogs, even mine, though I do wonder why.
Jim you don't seem to understand what I've been saying. Either I have a problem with getting a concept across or you have a reading comprehension problem. It doesn't matter which.
As for the diabetic warning. The number of dogs that will attack and bite are small compared to the number of dogs anyplace. The problem is NOT the bite its self it's the infection that can follow. Once again it's not all diabetics that end up with circulation issues but that's one of the effects of the diabetes. An injury of any kind to a foot or lower leg can be a problem and any resulting infection.
I actually enjoy a well behaved dog, but they few also compared to the number of dogs around anyplace. I see lots of dogs on leashes pulling very hard on the leash, that's NOT a well trained dog, would it attack? Probably not, but I've experienced an apparently well trained, and according to the owner very friendly dog attack. Fortunately he was leashed and a strong individual on the other end of the leash. He only ripped a small tear in the heal of my hand, instead of my throat.
I'm met many friendly dogs after that.
By nature, as decedents of wolves, their wolf instincts can come out at any time.
If the rules are followed by the humans, I don't have a problem. If a dog or any animal appears to be aggressive I simply avoid. However avoiding can be a problem if the animal is OFF leash.
As has been said it's the "dog owners" that are the problem. Dogs are just domesticated wolves that have been bred to be of all sizes and shapes.
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Old 04-30-2016, 09:18 AM   #52
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The only dogs running loose that I have encountered were dogs from the neighborhood and not the campground.
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Old 04-30-2016, 09:28 AM   #53
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I think its interesting that my pet is welcome at nursing homes and many human hospitals as a pet therapy dog but it appears not welcome at some NP.

I know their are bad owners with bad pets around. Perhaps they should require the pets to have pass a temperament and obedience certification before being allowed in the NP but then allow them more access. Also maybe the people should have to pass background checks before being allowed access to the parks. You never know when people may revert back to ape like behavior.
After all Dogs reportedly share 98.8% in common with the Grey Wolf DNA and Humans share supposedly 98.5% in common with the Chimp DNA.
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Old 04-30-2016, 10:07 AM   #54
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J
By nature, as decedents of wolves, their wolf instincts can come out at any time.

I think you will find that there has been lots of research done on this topic over the last few decades and most respected trainers and researchers will suggest that dogs with behaviour involving aggression have an anxiety disorder. Nothing to do with having been decedents of wolves 30,000 years ago!

Anxiety disorders in dogs come in many different forms and causes. Many are created either through an experience the dog may have had (i.e. attacked as a pup or poorly socialized as a pup) and the action the owner/handler took after such an event or through the general training practises/actions or lack there of, by the owner/handler. In many cases its found the dog has an undiagnosed medical issue that is making it a very unhappy/uncomfortable & unpridictable dog. The first thing most vets will do on hearing a dog is behaving in an aggressive/fearful manner is run a blood test on them to rule out a medical condition. To a some what lesser extent the issue may come from the poor practises of the breeder in choosing their breeding stock - for example a puppy mill breeder who breeds for looks only with little to no care taking to personality traits. Unfortunately even good breeders can produce pups with temperament issues even if they do everything right prior to breeding - just like humans its impossible to be able to totally predict what personally traits the mixing of two different gene pools will create.

The only well know trainer I know of who still subscribes to the wolf theory and uses it to explain various dog behaviours or their own very questionable training practises is Caesar Milan. THANKFULLY Caesar Milan is no longer consider the man to listen to when it comes to dog training - in fact most professional trainers I know and work wth would be happy if somehow every rerun of his show was to completely vanish from the airways along with any articles and books he ever wrote.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:51 AM   #55
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I think its interesting that my pet is welcome at nursing homes and many human hospitals as a pet therapy dog but it appears not welcome at some NP.

I know their are bad owners with bad pets around. Perhaps they should require the pets to have pass a temperament and obedience certification before being allowed in the NP but then allow them more access. Also maybe the people should have to pass background checks before being allowed access to the parks. You never know when people may revert back to ape like behavior.
After all Dogs reportedly share 98.8% in common with the Grey Wolf DNA and Humans share supposedly 98.5% in common with the Chimp DNA.
I think those who have a pet as a therapist can legally take them into places where they would otherwise be banned. Even onboard aircraft.
If you wish, you can buy a certificate for $57 over the internet, if you consider yourself certifiable.
BTW: We share 70% of our DNA with Oak trees. Nothing is more deceptive than the implications of partial truths or facts out of context.
I am told that 80% of Murderers in North America had consumed potatoes within 24 hours prior to the commission of their crimes?
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:50 PM   #56
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One of the things that is interesting about this discussion, is that we all come at it with our personal history, which colors our reasoning and perception regarding dogs. I am of the live and let live persuasion, but I will say, that I have been witness to or involved in FIVE different unprovoked dog attacks while on trails or at lakes and rivers in the past ten years. That seems like a high number to me.

Once was along the Colorado River in Moab, where many, many people were swimming in the river. My son, who was four at the time, was crouched on shore, digging in the sand with me sitting right next to him. Out of nowhere, a dog was on him, and bit him on the leg, bad enough to leave scarring. Had I not been sitting right there, I can only imagine how much worse the damage would have been. After kicking the dog away and while tending to my son, the same dog then attacked the dog of a canoer, who was pulling up to shore, tearing holes in the dogs life vest and biting the owner (this dog was still IN THE CANOE when this happened). At no point was anyone able to gain control over said dog and in fact, I was yelled at for kicking the dog. We actually filed a police report because it was so traumatic.

Another time while hiking to the top of one of Colorado's fourteeners, an off leash dog came around the switchback and grabbed the throat of a leashed dog who was walking with it's owner just ahead of us. The leashed dog suffered enough wounds that its owner needed to carry it down the mountain. Again, the off leash dog owner was furious that his dog was kicked and struck to get it off of the leashed dog.

I know these aren't common occurrences, but they were the two most traumatic. We have dear friends whom we camp with and they bring their incredibly well behaved dog along and we enjoy her company. I would never lump their dog in with the ones I saw attack my son and the other dog, but I can completely understand the need for leash laws while on trails. I think the idea of a separate place to exercise dogs, or a doggy daycare on site is a great idea!
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:04 PM   #57
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Most dogs are good dogs.

Most of a person's encounter with dogs are good encounters. However it's very few bad encounters that cause a lot of problems. The rules need to be followed and should be enforced. It can be difficult to determine which dog is good which is not. So the rules and laws have to applied across the board.
This is not unusual. Airline travelers are subject to searches, delays, and etc. because of a very few bad guys. We spend billions of dollars to week out the few. And the rules are applied across the board.
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:35 PM   #58
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Someone here pointed out you can get a certificate for $57 if you consider yourself certifiable. And someone else pointed out we share 70% of our DNA with Oak Trees.

There are times when I think my husband would agree--I'm both dumb as a stump AND certifiable.

Very interesting topic; agree dogs should be kept under control. Owners should scoop! Those super-long leashes are a bane IMHO.

The blood-glucose alert girls below. The old one is getting deaf and the younger one is taking over some work as a hearing alert dog for my husband.
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:06 PM   #59
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I always took my dog with me when we camped and was always certain to pick up after him. Maybe that's why no one there would ever shake my hand.

Then I discovered sandwich bags.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:16 PM   #60
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I think those who have a pet as a therapist can legally take them into places where they would otherwise be banned. Even onboard aircraft.
If you wish, you can buy a certificate for $57 over the internet, if you consider yourself certifiable.
BTW: We share 70% of our DNA with Oak trees. Nothing is more deceptive than the implications of partial truths or facts out of context.
I am told that 80% of Murderers in North America had consumed potatoes within 24 hours prior to the commission of their crimes?
Well no you can't take a Pet therapy certified dog places other than any dog can go except for nursing homes, hospitals and so on that have invited them to come. They are not service dogs. You can buy anything on the internet but a true pet therapy dog must be trained, tested, certified and insured.
Yeah the % DNA means nothing much but dogs are not just domesticated wolves.
Most dog problems are bad owners. Which includes poor training and poor or inappropriate breed selection for whatever task or environment the pet is expected to be exposed to. I would be willing to bet that "most" of these dogs involved in these aggressive attacks have a history of such and the owners are fully aware of potential problems but chose to ignore them.
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