Importance of 4WD?

[pete_britt]

Don't forget the difference between NEED and WANT. Although sometimes wants turn into needs.
I once got called to rescue a friend (He needed to get to work to complete some paperwork or loose his job. And a few inches of snow underlaid and topped by ice was preventing him from going anywhere.) My GMC K3500 with chains on all four wheels was the only vehicle to successfully negotiate the hilly terrain of Marietta GA that day. It was FUN. I am looking forward to January and seeing my new Casita hitched to my Silver Hourse.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by pete_britt

Don't forget the difference between NEED and WANT.

This is so very true. Be it our homes, our cars and trucks, our travel trailers, or any of our belongings. Most of us could get by with a lot less, BUT we don't WANT to.

[Night Sailor]

I was once stuck on the side of an undivided highway and unable to pull forward back on. I was force to back up into the on coming lane. Fortunately there was no traffic. 4x4 would have allowed me to safely pull back on. I would only chose 4x4 for safety reasons.


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[Roger H]

I just posted this in another thread...

and this...

I think that both are salient in this thread as well.

Originally Posted by floyd

You sold them, I fixed them!
Consider the extra thousands spent on drive train repairs and hub replacements.

If you're buying an '83 Ford (or Chevy) 4WD, you're absolutely right. That's not the case with anything built after about 2000 any more. Better engineering and seals have pretty much taken care of most of the old running gear failures now out to 200k miles. And i just bought a new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited and bought a Chrysler lifetime warranty. The car has warranty against lubricated parts failures for as long as I own the car... no mileage limit. It's hard to refuse that kind of deal.

Originally Posted by floyd

Word of advice... Unless you just want to foist off a piece of junk, don't EVER trade a vehicle in to a dealer. No matter how many wheels drive the thing, sell it outright and buy cash or suffer the loss.

Floyd, you've gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. I try to buy cars that are in demand with features that are in demand so I can sell them when the time comes. And I've been successful at that as well over the years, but some folks buy "dogs" and can't unload them themselves at all.

I just traded in an '07 FJ 'Cruiser six speed manual. The FJ has one of the highest resale values of all cars on the road; that said, the dealer I bought it from almost four years ago had it on his lot for over 8 months because it was a stick. i bought it for $6k under book from a dealer! I knew that I'd likely have it for sale for a while too... and it needed shocks, tires, and wheels (salt corrosion on the alloy wheels.) And with 130k on the clock, 30k of that towing miles, likely it would need a clutch in the next 20k miles and probably a water pump and brakes soon after that. I got more than wholesale book out of it when I traded it to a dealer, and they'll likely wholesale it.

So, there's some cars I hang onto and sell myself, and some that I just couldn't sell to another private party in good conscience without either taking care of all of that maintenance or disclosing that it needs to be done. And we're talking about $5-6k of routine maintenance there; none of which had anything to do with the 4WD components.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Roger H

If you're buying an '83 Ford (or Chevy) 4WD, you're absolutely right. That's not the case with anything built after about 2000 any more. Better engineering and seals have pretty much taken care of most of the old running gear failures now out to 200k miles. And i just bought a new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited and bought a Chrysler lifetime warranty. The car has warranty against lubricated parts failures for as long as I own the car... no mileage limit. It's hard to refuse that kind of deal. .

This simply does not relate to my experience or that of the suppliers and other mechanics with whom I worked.
I had fleet responsibility until 2007 and have continued to work after that. Front hub loss alone is enough to keep me in 2WD or at worst maybe AWD based on front wheel drive.
Carrying around an extra drivetrain (just in case) in an era when even a spare tire is becoming superfluous, seems a bit silly to me, but then I tend to drive mostly on roads.
What's all the talk about trade in value anyway? Buy the right vehicle the first time and you can keep it.

[Roger H]

Originally Posted by floyd

This simply does not relate to my experience or that of the suppliers and other mechanics with whom I worked.
I had fleet responsibility until 2007 and have continued to work after that. Front hub loss alone is enough to keep me in 2WD or at worst maybe AWD based on front wheel drive.

What kind of fleet, Floyd? And I can tell you from experience that fleet drivers don't take ownership, and therefore don't take care of the equipment like they would if they owned it. "Drive it like you stole it" comes to mind.

But that aside, driving 4WD vehicles almost exclusively since 1979, and using products from AMC/Jeep, International Harvester, Toyota, Nissan, Ford and Chevy and now Chrysler/Jeep, I've never had any of the transfer case or front driveline components fail on anything I've owned, nor has anyone I've known or traveled with. The sole exception was an '01 Chevy S10 4dr pickup where the rear differential failed at 60k miles uder service of towing a Scamp 19. Once a heavier rear axle was installed as a replacement, it never needed service again. My son just sold that one in August '15 with 140k on it.

Originally Posted by floyd

What's all the talk about trade in value anyway? Buy the right vehicle the first time and you can keep it.

Needs change. Families get bigger and then smaller. Crashes happen. Bigger trailers come and go, and towing and hauling needs change. People have offered me stupids amounts of money to sell a car... so I did. But hopefully, at 60, this new Jeep I bought will, in fact, be the one I keep.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Roger H

But that aside, driving 4WD vehicles almost exclusively since 1979, and using products from AMC/Jeep, International Harvester, Toyota, Nissan, Ford and Chevy and now Chrysler/Jeep, I've never had any of the transfer case or front driveline components fail on anything I've owned, nor has anyone I've known or traveled with.

Well you can now say that you have meet someone at least indirectly that has!

With less than 30,000 miles on my truck the rear differential seal failed big time while on a road trip. Good news is I saw the oil on the ground while pulling out of a parking spot and stopped & crawled under the truck to investigate. Drove straight to dealer who fixed it right away. Glad I noticed it when I did as it could have been worse as it was loosing fluid fast! As a side note the truck had been in for a full service at the local dealer only two week prior and according to the paper work they did check the fluid level at that time and no problems noted.

Have BTW also had a front axle bearing replacing as well - again with less than 30,000 miles on the truck.

Good news is that although the truck was off its standard 3 year warranty due to age not milage both items where covered under the 5 year power train warranty. Happy about that as the rear differential seal bill was $1200 .

[Raz]

I've had 6 4wd pickups since 1981. Only one drive train issue, a universal joint on the rear shaft of my '91 Ranger.

What's all the talk about trade in value anyway? Buy the right vehicle the first time and you can keep it.

Unlike you, I don't have access to a shop with a lift. Even if I did the days of the shade tree mechanic are passing. In fact, the days of the independent are numbered in my opinion. As such I sell or trade every 3-5 years. At that point the vehicle will need a few thousand in maintenance, tires, battery, ect. and the salt problems are not far behind. I kept my Ranger for 11 years. It had 106,000 miles and was uninspectable. We all have different realities.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Roger H

What kind of fleet, Floyd? And I can tell you from experience that fleet drivers don't take ownership, and therefore don't take care of the equipment like they would if they owned it. "Drive it like you stole it" comes to mind.

But that aside, driving 4WD vehicles almost exclusively since 1979, and using products from AMC/Jeep, International Harvester, Toyota, Nissan, Ford and Chevy and now Chrysler/Jeep, I've never had any of the transfer case or front driveline components fail on anything I've owned, nor has anyone I've known or traveled with. The sole exception was an '01 Chevy S10 4dr pickup where the rear differential failed at 60k miles uder service of towing a Scamp 19. Once a heavier rear axle was installed as a replacement, it never needed service again. My son just sold that one in August '15 with 140k on it.



Needs change. Families get bigger and then smaller. Crashes happen. Bigger trailers come and go, and towing and hauling needs change. People have offered me stupids amounts of money to sell a car... so I did. But hopefully, at 60, this new Jeep I bought will, in fact, be the one I keep.

Four hundred plus pieces of equipment, everything from light plants to semi trucks , cranes and payloaders, in addition to about two hundred light trucks and a few cars. The trucks were assigned to field applications.
Still, even with all things being equal, two transmissions and two axles should mean at least twice the number of failures compared to one of each... and everything put together sooner or later falls apart!
Of course all types have their place, but don't forget, a modern 4WD pickup would be challenged to drive on the roads which the Model T faced daily as a matter of course.

[Roger H]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Well you can now say that you have meet someone at least indirectly that has!

With less than 30,000 miles on my truck the rear differential seal failed big time while on a road trip.

Have BTW also had a front axle bearing replacing as well - again with less than 30,000 miles on the truck.

First, your rear differential problem is independent of 4WD, so that's not a 4WD issue. And all vehicles also have front wheelbearings, so that may or may not be a 4WD issue as well. I've had front wheel bearings fail on a Ford sedan in its day. It looks from your avatar that you're towing with a Nissan Frontier? I'm not sure about the Frontier, but I know my '07 Titan was fraught with bad rear axle seals. I had to have them replaced... and some folks had to have the entire axle replaced. But that's a Nissan engineering issue, not a 4WD issue.

Originally Posted by floyd

Four hundred plus pieces of equipment, everything from light plants to semi trucks , cranes and payloaders, in addition to about two hundred light trucks and a few cars. The trucks were assigned to field applications.
Still, even with all things being equal, two transmissions and two axles should mean at least twice the number of failures compared to one of each... and everything put together sooner or later falls apart!
Of course all types have their place, but don't forget, a modern 4WD pickup would be challenged to drive on the roads which the Model T faced daily as a matter of course.

I meant specifically Floyd, what kind of 4WD trucks were you servicing that had all of the failures you allude to? That's significant in assessing whether it was fleet-wide on a variety of vehicles, or the failures were the same parts on a specific make and model.

I'm not so sure that your assertion about the Model T's would be entirely accurate either. It's biggest assets over bad roads were it's light weight, low gearing, and over-built rear-end (later ones anyway) and that it had something like 18 inches of ground clearance compared to the typical 8-10 inches today. But the model T can't hold a candle to the comfort, ride, and reliability of anything built today. And yes, I'd put just about any modern 4WD up against a model T on a torture track. They went where they needed to in those days and people put up with the flats, breakdowns, and bad road manners 'cause that was the best their was for most folks.

I suspect that if you or I had to put up with that, we'd be fit to be tied.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Roger H

First, your rear differential problem is independent of 4WD, so that's not a 4WD issue.

And all vehicles also have front wheelbearings, so that may or may not be a 4WD issue as well. I've had front wheel bearings fail on a Ford sedan in its day. It looks from your avatar that you're towing with a Nissan Frontier? I'm not sure about the Frontier, but I know my '07 Titan was fraught with bad rear axle seals. I had to have them replaced... and some folks had to have the entire axle replaced. But that's a Nissan engineering issue, not a 4WD issue.

Sorry my response was to your comment to "driveline components fail" may be incorrect but I assume the differential is considered a driveline component all be it not directly related to 4x4 function.

Yes currently towing with a 2011 Frontier - Pro4x.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Raz

I've had 6 4wd pickups since 1981. Only one drive train issue, a universal joint on the rear shaft of my '91 Ranger.



Unlike you, I don't have access to a shop with a lift. Even if I did the days of the shade tree mechanic are passing. In fact, the days of the independent are numbered in my opinion. As such I sell or trade every 3-5 years. At that point the vehicle will need a few thousand in maintenance, tires, battery, ect. and the salt problems are not far behind. I kept my Ranger for 11 years. It had 106,000 miles and was uninspectable. We all have different realities.

When am I going to get that lift? never mind... my little shop has only a 10ft ceiling!
The new cars may well need an analyst couch more than a lift anyway, but that's a moot point if you don't buy one of these new Smart phones on wheels!
.....If you only keep them 3 years...maybe a lease, under warranty, may be your best choice.

I just got back from a 3000 mile round trip to the Sebring ScampCamp, The Ranger performed flawlessly and received several nice compliments. The only time I opened the hood was to jump charge a much newer SOB on which I installed a new alternator at the campground.
My Ranger would easily pass inspection if I replaced the fuse for the ABS which I removed 15 years ago. We all have different realities.

The light trucks in our fleet were mostly Chevrolets, Dodges, and Fords.
I was referring to the road conditions circa 1915, and not a "torture track"
I also know folks who could break an anvil with a rubber mallet!

[Roger H]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Sorry my response was to your comment to "driveline components fail" may be incorrect but I assume the differential is considered a driveline component all be it not directly related to 4x4 function.

Yes currently towing with a 2011 Frontier - Pro4x.

No worries, Carol. I believe that the thread was started specifically about 4WD vs 2WD, and the argument is that having twice the components causes twice the failures; specifically in the transfer case, front axle and driveline tha two wheel drive vehicles lack.

But since they ALL have rear axle drive... that transmission and rear-axle stuff doesn't count. <grin>

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Roger H

I try to buy cars that are in demand with features that are in demand so I can sell them when the time comes.

I try to buy cars that I like and that have the features which appeal to me and fit my budget. If the time comes to sell, I just have to look for a smart buyer with good taste!

[Raz]

Originally Posted by floyd

When am I going to get that lift? never mind... my little shop has only a 10ft ceiling!

I didn't say owned, I said access to. I find it hard to believe that an old wrench turner like you doesn't have a friend with a lift. Networking Floyd. It's called networking.

The new cars may well need an analyst couch more than a lift anyway, but that's a moot point if you don't buy one of these new Smart phones on wheels!

My new CRV has software controlled motor mounts.

.....If you only keep them 3 years...maybe a lease, under warranty, may be your best choice.

No thanks.

My Ranger would easily pass inspection if I replaced the fuse for the ABS which I removed 15 years ago. We all have different realities.

I'm always envious of folks able to keep vehicles for many years and many miles. Unfortunately, there are very few vehicles in Vermont that have survived 10 Vermont winters. Salt. That's my reality.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Raz

I'm always envious of folks able to keep vehicles for many years and many miles. Unfortunately, there are very few vehicles in Vermont that have survived 10 Vermont winters. Salt. That's my reality.

Like Northern IllAnnoy and half of those years in a refinery. Actually the worst I've seen is the over use of liquid deicer in Tn. They don't use it often, but when they do, cars dissolve like Alka-Seltzer tablets in a teapot!

[Roger H]

One last thought about 4WD... I guess it's kind of like someone who has never had glasses, and listened to all the folks who had them and complained that they were too expensive, that they left marks on their nose, broke too easily, and scratched too easily, and didn't talk much about how well they could see with them. Until he went and got a pair of his own in the right prescription, he never knew what the world looked like with them.

4WD is the same. If you've never had it, and you listen to folks who tell you its too expensive, too heavy, too costly to maintain, and too complex... you'll never know how much better, safer, easier, and secure your driving and towing could have been if you'd had it and known how and when to use it properly.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Roger H

One last thought about 4WD... I guess it's kind of like someone who has never had glasses, and listened to all the folks who had them and complained that they were too expensive, that they left marks on their nose, broke too easily, and scratched too easily, and didn't talk much about how well they could see with them. Until he went and got a pair of his own in the right prescription, he never knew what the world looked like with them.

4WD is the same. If you've never had it, and you listen to folks who tell you its too expensive, too heavy, too costly to maintain, and too complex... you'll never know how much better, safer, easier, and secure your driving and towing could have been if you'd had it and known how and when to use it properly.

Not sure this is a definitive summary proving that 4WD is superior to 2WD.

I have owned four wheel drive vehicles when I lived in the snow belt. Only under certain circumstances are they safer, easier, and more secure. And I did know how and when to use it. Living in Florida with no desire or intention to ever experience snow again other than at the snow cone booth at the state fair, 4WD is something I do not need. And while it is more expensive to purchase, though not too costly, it is heavier and does require more attention than 2WD and fuel mileage is not quite as good. And as previously stated, the insurance companies charge more, presumably because they expect all 4WD owners to drive off-road with reckless abandon. I'm glad that some members own and "love" their 4WDs, but that doesn't mean 4WD is superior, or that EVERYONE should opt for it.


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[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by CPW

Not sure this is a definitive summary proving that 4WD is superior to 2WD.

I have owned four wheel drive vehicles when I lived in the snow belt. Only under certain circumstances are they safer, easier, and more secure. And I did know how and when to use it. Living in Florida with no desire or intention to ever experience snow again other than at the snow cone booth at the state fair, 4WD is something I do not need. And while it is more expensive to purchase, though not too costly, it is heavier and does require more attention than 2WD and fuel mileage is not quite as good. And as previously stated, the insurance companies charge more, presumably because they expect all 4WD owners to drive off-road with reckless abandon. I'm glad that some members own and "love" their 4WDs, but that doesn't mean 4WD is superior, or that EVERYONE should opt for it.


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The constant lack of snow is why I have no desire to live in Florida
Living in Wisconsin I have a great excuse for having a 4 wheel drive vehicle. .

[Wild Coloradoan]

Originally Posted by jwgeorgen

We are planning our retirements, hope to full-time with boondocking being important. How important is having a tow vehicle with 4 wheel drive?

Thanks!

Jan Georgen

If you are boondocking, especially in the western part of the states - 4x4 is a necessity... 4x4's are more flexible and hold their value. I wouldn't be without a 4x4 - worth every dime...