The physical address thing....

[Gina D.]

To quote from another thread:

Mail IS a big deal, even if you don't expect to get any.

You NEED a physical address and a mail address, or you likely won't be able to keep stuf like bank accounts, driver's license, plats, insurance, credit cards, etc

This is not quite true.

I do not live full time yet. I have a sticks and bricks house, with a parcel # and a street address. However, I also live in an area where the Post office does NOT do street delivery. When I moved up here, this was the first time I had heard of this (They lie with that "Through rain sleet and snow, dark of night thing) The US government kindly supplies me with an official US PO Box free of charge and this IS my real, legal and official address. The street address means nothing to anyone but the county property tax tax assessor. If mail were to be addressed to my street #, it will cheerfully be rejected by the PO and returned to sender.

The PO Box is on my drivers license, my bank accounts and my voters registration card, altho I had to present my mortgage papers and parcel # to the PO to get the box. A utility bill serves as well.

If Carmax wanted to repo my car, they wouldn't have a clue where to look, yet I have a signed contract without a physical address. Same with my credit cards. BUT, the address for my CC billings is another box, in South Dakota, where I use a bill paying service similar to what most banks offer now. My bills go to the South Dakota address, they email me a copy, and I authorize the bill paying service to pay with a check from my checking account... drawn in California.

For UPS and Fed Ex deliveries, I give my work address. No one asks my for ID with the address on it. A zipcode is all my car insurance company required after I explained the mailing situation to them.

This seems a surprise to most folks when you tell them, but it is also readily accepted once explained. I DO have to explain it a lot.

There must be a list of zip codes somewhere that are accepted non street delivery zones. Perhaps if you could "move" to one of those places, and have bills set up with a service like mine, it would help.

[Pete Dumbleton]

Ahh, but the catch is one CAN'T legally get a PO Box without a physical address. If you sell and go on the road, you can't keep the box. That's why Escapees and the mailing services in South Dakota, etc., are thriving.

Extracted from a court case:

7. Section D910.2.4 of the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM) states:

An applicant for post office box service or a current box customer seeking renewal must identify his or her physical address (i.e., an individual’s residence or a business’s location) to the postmaster of the office where service is sought or provided. If the postmaster cannot confirm the physical address, the applicant or box customer must provide proof of the physical address . . ..

8. DMM Section D910.8.2 gives a postmaster authority to terminate post office box service for various reasons, including if a customer "refuses to update information on the box application."

Here's a series of court cases on the subject.

Actually, the problem is worse than that because laws governing the commercial mail services require them to get a physical address. Some will accept a CG where one resides for awhile (That's how South Dakta does it; Escapees Members use their address). In Florida, one can use the County Courthouse address as the physical, but still needs a mail address. Florida does allow use of a friend's address. Many people choose to use a family address, but then one is subject to the laws of that state, including income tax.

[Bigfoot Mike]

Thank Gina, that's interesting info.

For me, the whole address thing is about saving money. If you have no permanent address, why pick one that collects more taxes, insurance costs, etc.?

[Gina D.]

Pete, yes, I did mention that you had to give some sort of proof of address to get the US PO Box..

however, the box I have in South Dakota is a private one, and .. I have never stepped foot in South Dakota.

The creditor doesn't KNOW that the box is not a US issued one. They actually have no way of knowing. My address to them reads:

Gina D(eadbeat)
PO Box 1234567
Suix Falls, SD 57186

My Gubmint issue box reads:

Gina D(ear and wonderful)
PO Box 222222
Crestline, Ca. 99999

They look exactly the same in form. No way to distinguish or know where I physically am, yet they were happy to extend plastic to me anyway. The applications were sent to Suix Falls. They were forwarded to me in California. They were returned to the creditor with signatures indicating a Suix Falls billing address and no other address was given.

No questions asked.

[Gina D.]

Actually, the problem is worse than that because laws governing the commercial mail services require them to get a physical address.

This may also be another loophole.

My SD box is NOT a mail forwarding service, it is NOT a mail box, it is a BILLING address and bill paying service. Check HERE for info on this service. It is the oldest one out there, but there are others that are the same now.

They do not accept letters from aunt laura, nor do they automatically forward ANYTHING to me. I was never asked for a physical, they only have my US PO box. If I want the hard copy of something, I have to request it, they charge me a small fee and I have a limited time to grab it.

[Pete Dumbleton]

Credit isn't a big deal; pets could get credit. Can you get a driver's license, vehicle registration, health insurance, etc., through your SD address? That's the key thing because it's hard to Full Time without DL or plates.

As someone proposed on another thread, just having a chunk of property somewhere could be an easy answer. I suspect that may be necessary at some time in future.

[Gina D.]

Pete, you need to read my first post.

My Drivers license. PO Box. No street address.
All my auto insurance is through a PO Box. Zip code was the only requirement. That came with the PO box.

My Car and trailer reg have my street address as well as my PO Box. They ask where the car is garaged, not where I live and I did not have to show proof of any address when I used my street address. When I explained the PO Box and Non Delivery thing to them, they knew about it and told me if it was in a storage facility, to use THAT address. I could have just as easily put down my work address... DMV mail goes only to my PO Box. As you pointed out, the *assumption* of a physical address is there because one is required to get a US PO Box, but once again, the street address is not on any paperwork regarding my DL.

My EMPLOYER doesn't even have my street address, so all my med insurance etc is through.. the PO Box. My BANK doesn't have a street address. No one has, or uses my street address.

What I am trying to say is that is not required to provide a street address for the items you have mentioned. At least, in my experience, I did not have to, I didn't, and.. CAN'T.

[Pete Dumbleton]

We are getting wrapped around the axle here. Your DL is dependent on your POB which is dependent on your street address. Without street address you have no POB and then no DL.

[Gina D.]

thats exactly my point.

The assumption by most institutions that this is the way it is, which would be correct, appears to be good enough to acquire all the other things you mentioned. DMV, Bank accounts, insurance, credit cards. You not not actually have to provide the physical address to them. And in fact, I have not. So the statement that you can't get or keep these things without a street address is not true in certain circumstances.

IF you have something called a "PO Box", or even just "Box" logic says you had to provide the PO controllers with a street address. The "PO Box" in SD is private, not government run, yet folks *Assume* the above, because, on paper, it looks exactly the same. Yet they were never provided with a street address. The bill paying service was only provided with my gubmint PO Box as an address, so even TEY don't have the physical one.

I can not be held liable for "Hiding" or not providing a valid street address, because the gubmint has, in fact, not provided me with one.

This is an unusual circumstance that I am sure happens all over the country in other rural areas, and trying to explain it to people is difficult.. they don't believe you. "What do you mean you don't have a street address? Everyone has a street address" They take pulling mail out of their box for granted and believe it is an American right to have their stuff delivered to their residence. It is NOT, and not all Americans are blessed with this service. I have been denied shipment of items from eBay wins because the seller who ships UPS or Fed Ex won't ship to an unverified address. Since my cards are all issued to PO Boxes (Once again, the only way they CAN be) I can't get a street address verified through Paypal. UPS and Fed Ex do not ship to PO Boxes.

My Paypal shipping address to the Crestline PO was verified with my Visa ATM, and all I need is one verified address, so it doesn't matter if I pay with another CC issued to the SD address.

It gets complicated, but bottom line, there are acceptions to every rule, and I live one.

[Gina D.]

Here is an excellent example one hoop I have to jump through. I just dealt with it not 15 mins ago. From a gubmint website, no less.





The info I gave them was my parcel address and is abosutetely true, but it is not my "address". I suspect I could have put just about anything in there (Not that I would have) and they would not jump through hoops to verify it.

With the recognition that there are some addresses that are forced PO Boxes, I get a "buy" I guess.

[Pete Dumbleton]

I'm not saying you're not doing it now, I'm just saying that you wouldn't be able to do it if you took to the road and wanted to set up somewhere else WITHOUT having the property.

You'd still have the bill-paying address but would not have a PO box. I think the bill paying address is a nifty firewall! If I ever make a major win on the lottery, one of the first things I will do is set up an address with a lawyer (totally impenetrable because of privilege).

BTW, by postal law, the private mail services (dunno about the billing services) must use PMB (private mail box) in the address. On my last one, before I moved into an anchored home, the postmaster sent around warnings that after a certain date the local USPO would refuse to deliver mail to the UPS Store that didn't have PMB or other approved words in the address (law was designed to stop private box scammers from looking like a real address).

What I did in Florida was use the county courthouse, per Florida law. In Washington, I used my friend's address (didn't look up the law). In both cases, my PMB address appeared on my DL, but the physical address was in the computer (there was a place in both data bases for it).

Were I going back on the road without real estate, I would be inclined to join Escapees and do the Texas thing. Besides having a large organization behind me, TX income tax (zero), license plates, voting, insurance and medical insurance all fit my needs. Different folks may have different needs than mine and may choose the South Dakota or Florida or other state route.

[Pete Dumbleton]

Here's a link to a pdf for Calif DL address change. Note they want a street address, not a PO Box, in the one field and then have a second field for mailing address (which can be PO Box).

[Gina D.]

I have had the same residence for over 10 years, and I had to renew my license a couple years ago, but they just took the info from the old one. The form you show is not familiar to me. It may be new since I last had to endure the renewal

(dunno about the billing services)

I would say it's a safe bet it's not. I have no direct information on that, only what I have as an address with the very well established (And I am sure highly regulated) company. It's possible, but I doubt the gubmint has overlooked them.

Here is how my "Box" appears with them and to my billers today, and has been the same for about 9 years.

(This is the insurance bill I got last week)





Since the billing service is not a "mail" (Vs. Mailing) address, the regulations may be different.