Axle-Less AxleLess Suspension - TIMBREN

[Old_Romad]

PS, or Psst! How can I find out what the most likely original equipment was for my '77 13'? Serial number is E72095. Most of it was stripped out and I can't even tell what is missing. IF it is!

Paul A. (still waiting, patiently...sigh)

[Bob Miller]

Original Equipment???

A good answer here is WHY?
These aren't exactly something that one restores to "Original" like a 1977 Porsche.

Somehow, but only in my opinion, I would venture, it was about about the same as a 2014 base unit, Scamp hasn't made many real changes since Adam parked the first Scamp ever in his apple orchard.

One would think that the source for that information would be, let's see, I think I know, but only in my opinion.......Scamp!

Basic Rule for almost 40 y.o. FGRV's: Build what YOU want/need in your rig.

Maybe not the answer wanted, but ya get what ya pay for.....

[Andrew Gibbens]

There appears to be an idea growing that the Timbrens are some magic cure-all suspension for trailers and it would be a good idea to stamp that out. They look excellent for some particular applications (and offer some benefits to the trailer manufacturer) but are just another way of doing the same job as a rubber torsion axle.

I don't think the Timbren is what you really want, if you want to lift your trailer. Sure they show it being used off-road, but only with large tires on a small trailer.

If you look at the Timbren specification sheet you'll see that the wheel spindle is about level with the bottom of the frame rail it is welded to, once the trailer weight is applied. That may be a lift from where your trailer is riding now, but only by an inch or so.

If you go for the 2000HD model, you can get a version that gives another 1.5" of height, though a new torsion axle could give you more.

The specification sheet also shows that the wheel spindle is some 12" (unbelievably, they don't give the dimension!) behind the centre of the cross-beam hole. In your Scamp axle, this is probably 6". So the simple offset piece that frank2cv drew (about a 2" offset) will nowhere near do this job unless you are willing to move the Scamp wheels backwards a large amount - and that probably means making new fender wells to accomodate the tires.

Your best bet is to fit a completely new axle and remove all of the old one - making Timbrens fit on the end of the old axle tube would be a lot more work and will involve some unnecessary compromises.

[Bob Miller]

I certainly agree with you Andrew. Without a lot of past experience and skills, trying to reinvent the wheel could leave one with no wheels at all....

Going back to stock will work, but re-engineering??? Who Knows

For all the discussions about the Timbren system, I don't recall anyone that has actually fitted it to an FGRV.

And that's my opinion, subject to sudden change or correction, and with or without good reason...

[ruscal]

Paul,
It would be interesting to see your project take shape. Take lots of pics to share. Semantics aside, the Timbren does the same thing as any of the common torsion axles that have been in use for years. They pretty much compress the rubber or elastomers to resist the forces applied. Shear also comes into play in some designs. I can see that the Timbren by nature of the two separate axles would be harder to align with accuracy. The photo shows a mounting plate with bolt holes to fasten the suspension unit to the trailer frame. Just normal bolt holes about 10" apart would allow too much toe in variation to easily set. You would like to see 1/16" accuracy at the tire radius. The square hole they provide could be an aid to holding the axles parallel when a 2" x 2" tube would be used as a cross member, if the fit is snug. I would think there would not be an advantage to utilizing the stock torsion axle tube to accomplish that due to it being welded to the trailer frame in the wrong location, and it would need to be spaced down from the frame to allow insertion of the suspension units. Whatever tube you would use would have to match the dimension of the socket for it to be of any use. That tube really doesn't need to be attached to the frame of the trailer, but may be more effective if welded to the suspension unit socket once toe in was dialed in. The Timbren design looks like the rubber dampers could be replaced when they need to be or even tuned to the weight of the trailer by changing density of dampers. I don't know if they offer various spring rate dampers. The compression and rebound dampers are separate with that design. Going the Timbren route certainly requires more work to install than the standard axles, but would be a fun project to do, and could be a workable solution. Good luck, and do keep us informed how it goes.
Russ

[Old_Romad]

[QUOTE=Bob Miller;437175]Original Equipment???

A good answer here is WHY?
These aren't exactly something that one restores to "Original" like a 1977 Porsche.

Yeah Bill, just want more of than "learnin" about them?
There doesn't seem to have been a converter, and some PO (or POS) took out ALL fuses and just tied the AC into a couple of surface mounted sockets!

I don't plan on restoring it (I know! Boo/Hiss/Etc) just making a dry OFF THE GROUND place to sleep on mining claims! Or wherever. Knowing what "was" is a great way of sort cutting to what "can be", without re-engineering the world. I have to admit tho, my "addiction" to "knowing it all" (in the good sense) is getting tiring. I cut & pasted again last night until 4am! The "page" of Scamp related material and mods (especially. Don't plan on doing them, but love to see how people do things!) is now 237 pages long! Sheesh. I WISH you folks WEREN'T so good sometimes!

[Andrew Gibbens]

Originally Posted by ruscal

The Timbren design looks like the rubber dampers could be replaced when they need to be or even tuned to the weight of the trailer by changing density of dampers. I don't know if they offer various spring rate dampers.

Unlike the rubber torsion axle manufacturers, Timbren don't apopear to offer any customisation of the axles. although they do offer 'HD' models which appear to be the axle units from the next size up, but with springs to suit the actual load. So for example, the 2000HD appears to be the 3500 model with rubber to suit a 2000lb load.

[tractors1]

Originally Posted by accrete

... and the mention of Citroen .... my dad and i in the Citroen...bad road to the area, he makes the adjustment and the suspension must have put us up another ~6" or so, the farmers in their trucks were looking at us like we were from another planet ; )

...might be fun to have on a TV&TT. No steps needed into rigs at camp!

One other nifty thing about the Citroen setup was that when the car was at it's highest position you could put a block under the suspension arm of a flat tire, then lower the car - the blocked arm resulted in the flat tire rising off the ground to change it. THAT would be great on a trailer.

Charlie Y

[Old_Romad]

I didn't disappear into the woodwork, (or go hide!) just had to work my way (whole family did actually) through a cold, the flu, and then pneumonia strung end to end!
I wanted to answer a few of the comments. I hope I don't make anyone mad again, but... I admit I tend to be rude, crude and socially unacceptable, more often than not. That's what happens when you live in an 8 x 10 room with two cats who RULE you!

Andrew Gibbens
You said, "There appears to be an idea growing that the Timbrens are some magic cure-all suspension for trailers and it would be a good idea to stamp that out."

Isn't that a mite extreme? Sort of "you WILL like what I like or else"? Doesn't seem like most of what you have written, at least what I have read so far. I always thought the old saying, "Different strokes for different folks" made a lot of sense. If nothing else, it would be darned boring if we all only wanted/bought/used the same things even if it did make parts easier to find! LOL . (1984 anyone?)

Then you added, " If you look at the Timbren specification sheet you'll see that the wheel spindle is about level with the bottom of the frame rail it is welded to, once the trailer weight is applied. That may be a lift from where your trailer is riding now, but only by an inch or so". As well as, " So the simple offset piece that frank2cv drew (about a 2" offset) will nowhere near do this job unless you are willing to move the Scamp wheels backwards a large amount...".

Ah, the Timbren "brochure" shows they need to hire someone that actually can read the specs, AND write about it, let alone draw it. I went and obtained some partial CAD drawings (from their Patent copy) and redrew their 2000HD Model (Part #ASR2KHDS04), and showed the relationship between the "normal" Scamp spindle location that came with mine (in a factory new condition and angle, according to Scamp. NOT the condition mine is now!) and their relative locations on the frame to have the wheel well and tire match up properly. I will try to post the pics. On the Timbren web site home page, I have no idea why they show the one in the video that looks like it is collapsed fully and then show the normal one below in their drawing. I can only assume (Ooops) that no one has ever actually looked at the site and noticed the two DIFFERENT models!
The one in the video is obviously either the 2000HD #ASR2KHDS05 or the 3500 #ASR3500S04, BOTH of which have a NORMAL space of ONE QUARTER OF AN INCH below the frame (Really!) and deflect up to 1 3/4" upwards under full rated load! That is flat SHUT++ just like the video shows.

The 2000HD #ASR2KHDS04, which I "think" I want to use has a 7 1/2" space between the spindle center and the bottom of the frame! AND, it deflects upwards only 1 5/8" under FULL RATED LOAD. That is also the one they show on the small trailer behind the 4x4 on the bottom of the page. THAT is the exact kind of clearance I want! AIR between the axle/frame and the ground!! Plus, with the way I plan to beef up the frame, (NOT with the " the simple offset piece that frank2cv drew", he just gave me the idea) by adding a box tube along the frame to space and re-enforce the new "bolted on" position of that high rise Non-axle, I should have no problems with alignment or frame tweaking unless the factory installed THEIR axle wrong!

Oh yeah, Andrew! I wish you could 'splain that one to me! You know, the " I once spent a week in Lompoc one night myself." If I could figure out how to spend a WEEK here in ONE NIGHT, I would do it myself until the cows come home! My biggest nightmare, is after having lived here in EXILE for 30+ years, I will wind up here for eternity! Throw me over the border when I go! Float me out to sea! Bury me on the lone prairie, but NOT HERE!

Bob Miller
Your comment of, " And that's my opinion, subject to sudden change or correction, and with or without good reason..." is the BEST one of all! Don't ya just love to be able to "back up" without actually "eating" any feathers? I would have turned into a crow by now if I couldn't do that!

ruscal
Your "It would be interesting to see your project take shape.", is probably going to equate closely to that other saying laid at the Chinese feet, "May you live in "INTERESTING times... FOREVER!" Been there, still doing it!


So, there be my ideas, and I believe I have all the facts right. I certainly PO'd enough people at several companies getting them! (not really, but I would have been!)

Oh, and if you want the straight specs on the Timbren's (which do not necessarily agree with the brochures), then click on the blue box that says "Weights & dimensions" and download the pdf file named " ASR400-5200-Dimensions-Weights-Rev111813". It matches the CAD figures I found BEFORE finding it!

Paul, the poor, pathetic, and perennially perplexed new guy!

And, in matters of "discussion" as well as other endeavors, remember a quote from MY favorite "doctor, Dr. Seuss.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. "~ Dr. Seuss
Couldna said it bettah masef!
and you might also keep in mind one from me!

Be careful of the words you say
Make sure they're soft and sweet
You never know from day to day
Which ones you'll have to eat

Also attaching pics of the "poor Scamp" as when I got it! Should have left it alone, wouldn't have to paint it camo later! LOL

Neat story about the vent "brick" if anyone wants to know! (snicker)

The pdf of the outline is available if anyone wants a "close" scale drawing.














Scamp Outline Drawing.pdf

[Old_Romad]

Ooops (I seem to say that a lot)
Need to practice uploading attachments. Got some twict!

GOT 'em!

[Bob Miller]

Hmmmm

Still can't see how reinventing the wheel with the Timbren system will make your Scamp any better than just replacing the stock axle with one with more "Down" angle on the arms (available from the axle mfg.) to get increased road clearance. And that system looks like a lot of expensive metal and welding.

BTW: Patent drawings are almost never the same as "as built". I would ask Timbren for engineering drawings before accusing the graphic artist of not being able to draw a picture. Remember, after he drew it, engineering would usually have to approve it. I am sure that they will provide correct dimensions if the image isn't correct.

But rest assured, when someone puts up long rambling posts they shouldn't be concerned about negative feedback, as no one reads them anyway.

[Old_Romad]

Here are some data on deflections and distance from frame.
See notation (b) and (r)

[Old_Romad]

Bob, Timbren actually used cad drawings. The brochure is as far from accurate as their web site where they show two models, sort of argueing against which you get!

[Old_Romad]

But rest assured, when someone puts up long rambling posts they shouldn't be concerned about negative feedback, as no one reads them anyway.

COPY ALL! What did you say?

[Bob Miller]

But even negative feedback is better than no feedback at all. Isn't that why we post, to get feedback?

[David B.]

Paul, I had considered the Timbrel Axle on our 13' Scamp when ours needed replacing. I had followed a box trailer down the road and noticed how it pogoed along, and figured everything inside the Scamp would have been shaken apart. I know that this wasn't very scientific, as I didn't get a chance to talk with the driver, nor did I know if he may have had it overloaded, but it got me rethinking using this axle. I ended up using a flexiride because I actually adjust my ride height according to my camping needs. We usually twice a year boondock camp where most tent camp, and to get there I raise the Scamp ridiculously high to get over the boulder fields & ruts to crawl behind our 6" lifted Rubicon Jeep Wrangler that sits on 37" tires. Then when we get back home I lower the flexiride suspension down, replace the tires with just 8" rims to get the Scamp through our 7' garage door opening. I love the fexibility of the Flexiride axle.... different strokes for different folks.
Just something else to consider.
Dave & Paula

[ruscal]

Paul,
Nice patina on the trailer!
Looking at your sketch it appears you have aligned your new hub center directly under the old torsion axle center. Wouldn't you want to overlay the original hub travel arc with the new hub travel arc so they align with each other at ride height? The hub location is important not the old torsion bar center.
Russ

[Old_Romad]

Originally Posted by David B.

our 6" lifted Rubicon Jeep Wrangler that sits on 37" tires.

Except for a 4" lift, that describes my F150. Tell me more about the Flexride?
Some folks seem to take it personal when you don't follow their lead, but I just want specific results, not caring how if it works. Not really afraid of easier and cheaper either!
Paul

[Old_Romad]

Originally Posted by ruscal

Paul,
Nice patina on the trailer!
Looking at your sketch it appears you have aligned your new hub center directly under the old torsion axle center. Wouldn't you want to overlay the original hub travel arc with the new hub travel arc so they align with each other at ride height? The hub location is important not the old torsion bar center.
Russ

Russ, in reply let me just say.....DuH!
Didn't THINK of it! Thanks. Hopefully I would have but in the planning (maybe) stage is when to catch it! I do most of my stuff at O-dark:30 'til dawn, so sometimes I shouldn't think so much then. Habits from a lifetime of "nightwork".

Paul

[David B.]

Originally Posted by Old_Romad

Except for a 4" lift, that describes my F150. Tell me more about the Flexride?
Some folks seem to take it personal when you don't follow their lead, but I just want specific results, not caring how if it works. Not really afraid of easier and cheaper either!
Paul

The Flexiride axil shaft (mounted in rubber just like all the other brands of rubber torsion axils) has 80 splines to give you the ability to clock your spindle arm up or down to suit your needs at any given time. The splined shaft has a groove all the way around it that captures the single pinch bolt on the spindle arm, so even if your lock nut or lock washer bolt should come loose, the bolt is still captured and the arm will not come off. I hope this is clear enough to envision.
Dave & Paula