Escape 17B vs Scamp 16 towing

[Paul PDX]

Hi there,
I'm a complete novice, have never towed anything. I have a Toyota Highlander 2017 with trailer weight rating of 5000 pounds.
I'm deciding between a new Scamp 16 standard or Escape 17B. Although both trailers fall within my tow vehicle's stated capacity, the Escape is longer and heavier.
I live in Oregon and would use on mountain passes and forest service roads.

My question is: Is it significantly easier (or safer) to tow the Scamp 16 (not sure what GVWR is, but dry weight is 2000 pounds) as opposed to Escape 17B (dry weight 2500 or GVWR 4000)? Should the towing differences factor into my decision making process?

Any advice appreciated.

[Jon in AZ]

See the thread Trailer Weights in the Real World for real world weights and tongue weights for both models. Post #297 links to a spreadsheet of the data that's easier to use.

I think you'll find the real world difference between similarly-equipped units to be on the order of 500# or so, averaging around 2500-2600# for a S16 and 3000-3100# for an E17B. There's more variability among Scamp 16's because there are so many layouts and more stuff is optional.

That would be enough to be noticeable when towing in the mountains, but both are still well within the capabilities of your vehicle.

Best wishes with your decision!

[thrifty bill]

Since you have a Highlander with a 5,000 pound rating, you should be fine. Many will tow the heavier Escape 18 with the Highlander.

I like the Escape 17B layout better, but that is a personal choice. I tend to like the boxier FG trailers like my Trillium and the Escape. I believe the Trillium design was the inspiration for Escape initially. (I could be wrong).

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by thrifty bill

I believe the Trillium design was the inspiration for Escape initially. (I could be wrong).

I was told, buy an RV repair guy who worked at ETI in the early years, that Escape was based on Surfside.

[Radar1]

Can't tell you what the difference in towing is, but we have towed our Scamp 16 with a Subaru Outback 4 cyl when we kept the weight below 2540 lbs (tow limit for the Outback was 2700).
Now we're retired and our Scamp weighs 3080 lbs last weight check and we have towed easily with a Dodge Dakota small V8, Dodge Durango V6, and Ford Ranger turbo 4. All tow it easily, and I'm sure would also tow the Escape easily as well. The Scamp might be slightly more aerodynamic in a headwind though.
We are actually considering an Escape 17B to replace our Scamp. We have had our Scamp 10 years now and have traveled all over the 49 land based states with it. We love it!
We do like the Escape 17B also, as it comes with a wider bed than our Scamp (52" vs 45"), and has a front dinette, and can be equipped from the factory for boondocking with deep cycle batteries and solar. It also has larger fresh and black water tanks. If ordering new, the price of a well equipped Escape 17B is not much different than a well equipped Scamp 16 deluxe.

[Paul PDX]

Thank you all for those thoughtful replies! The real world weights referenced above are very helpful.

[rdickens]

The Scamp16 Deluxe Layout A is more similar to the Escape 17B.

I really thought I wanted an E17B but got a chance to get a Scamp16D-A quicker and a tiny bit cheaper with a much shorter drive to pick it up. (We live in KC Metro area.)

My sister was more patient and actually got an E17B. Both of us are happy!
Some Pros & Cons to each trailer ... Just depends on preferences.

As mentioned, Scamp16 Std has 44" wide main bed. Scamp16D-A has 54" bed.
Scamp16D-A has wood interior that is more similar to E17B.

Because we wanted the option of sleeping a couple of grandkids, we did a "no charge" swap of sofa/bunks in place of the normal Scamp16D-A front dinette. A tad bit more room in the side bathroom of the E17B; a bit more inside storage in the Scamp16D-A, I think?

We talked to Wayne Pitlick up at Scamp about the "no charge" swap.(Wayne is/was our previous Scamp13 salesman.)

Pix of our Scamp16D-A:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...EVhNVo1VHQ0WFU

Some pix of another (not my sister's) E17B we looked at:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Xo2T3JGX1pqS0E

Good luck with your choices!

Ray

[Paul PDX]

Thanks for those photos and information, Ray. Sounds like both trailers are excellent options.

One feature about the E17B that appeals to me, since I have school age kids, is the ability to sleep 4 (with bunks), but also the ability (if kids aren't along for the ride) to have a small dinette area without having to convert the bed during the day.

[floyd]

There are many great features and comforts in both trailers....


When it comes to towing though, the Scamp is the hands down winner.
Better aero, better balance, better road manners, lighter and smaller.


While there are many subjective elements of style, comfort, and convenience and each fiberglass trailer has some outstanding advantages,

The Scamp and similar shell and "wheelbase" designed trailers are truly unsurpassed for towing.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by floyd

There are many great features and comforts in both trailers....


When it comes to towing though, the Scamp is the hands down winner.
Better aero, better balance, better road manners, lighter and smaller.


While there are many subjective elements of style, comfort, and convenience and each fiberglass trailer has some outstanding advantages,

The Scamp and similar shell and "wheelbase" designed trailers are truly unsurpassed for towing.

Now, substitute Escape wherever the name Scamp occurs. Escape is the hands down winner.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Now, substitute Escape wherever the name Scamp occurs. Escape is the hands down winner.

You can, but I just couldn't honestly say that.

[rdickens]

Originally Posted by Paul PDX

Thanks for those photos and information, Ray. Sounds like both trailers are excellent options.

One feature about the E17B that appeals to me, since I have school age kids, is the ability to sleep 4 (with bunks), but also the ability (if kids aren't along for the ride) to have a small dinette area without having to convert the bed during the day.

I agree that it might be nice to have a dinette that easily converts to bunks.

The way that Scamp has thus far built the Layout A is that they

wall off the area on the driver's side and put a cabinet there.

That is why we made the "no charge swap" of the sofa/bunks in

place of the dinette. We can sleep a couple of grandkids in the

bunk beds without much problem.



Just as Scamp was accomodating enough to do the sofa/bunks swap,

I could imagine that they would leave that corner cabinet out and I

could have constructed a bunk setup there .... or later, when grandkids

are no longer interested in going with us, I can still build a dinette

into that sofa/bunks space. After all, it is "wood" and I am the son

of a carpenter.



Although we typically eat outside anyway (at a picnic table or in the

CLAM screen room/tent

, the problem then became .... If it is really

humid or rainy outside, how do you eat an occasional meal indoors.
The answer for us became the Lagun Table mount system that you

may have noticed in a couple pix. Those pix just showed a "template

table that had not yet been finished in oak to match the rest of the

trailer interior.



Having pulled both my Scamp16D-A and also my sister and B.I.L.'s

E17B, I do think that our Scamp16D-A is a little lighter and easier

to tow .... not a huge difference but maybe at least a little.


I think the E17B splits the extra foot of length between the dinette

and the side bathroom. My wife and I are just medium-frame people

and, although the side bathroom isn't terribly roomy, we don't spend

a lot of time in there and so it works for us.



My B.I.L. got the front storage compartment on their E17B and I do

like the external storage space with easy access.



If possible, I would try to visit both the Scamp and Escape factories

and/or attend an FGRV camping rally .... actually stepping inside of

both trailers (instead of looking a pictures and an "options sheet")

would be extremely valuable to you. They seem to

make changes to both brands of trailers of trailers all the time.



Scamp only wants a $500 deposit that is fully refundable right up to

the point where they start building your trailer. If you were to cancel,
Scamp cheerfully refunds your money and gives your reservation/spot

to the next person in the build queue.



If you go to a rally, they usually have an "open house" day where you

can see and step into many different brands and sizes of trailers, see

what "mods" and decorating they have done, see what tow vehicle they

are using, and talk at length with the owners. IMHO - So very valuable.


To attend a rally, you could stay at a nearby motel. Or, many rally parks

have primitive cabins for rent ... Or, you could buy/borrow a tent ....

or rent/borrow a small trailer (I think that Camping World still

rents small (8 ft box) pop-up trailers.


Best of luck on your decisions!


Ray

[Ervin in Portland]

Hey Paul in PDX, great minds from Portland must think alike as I am considering both trailers as well, with the same TV. Went up to Escape’s factory and viewed the 17b in person and was able to see a 16ft Scamp deluxe with front bunks in West Linn from an owner that Scamp connected me to. While at ETI, the new GM Karl spent 40 minutes with my wife and I talking about the vision of ETI, what passion he had.
Escape just feels so much bigger. I like the ability to set it up with solar and dual 6 volt batteries for boondocking as others have said. Can get a high lift axle and larger tires which might aid in forest road travels. Bathroom is bigger, and the bed seems much bigger due to the more square design. No rat fur, and ability to get extra insulation for longer season of camping. And the front storage box is nice, and it acts like an extra rock guard to protect the main trailer.
Scamp is going to be lighter. The spread sheet cited in an earlier post shows earlier model 17b with the 3inch frames vs the 4 inch frames made since mid 2014. All of the 17b’s shown are older than 2014 if I am reading the spread sheet right, so they will be heavier. Escape gave me an estimate of 2920 lbs dry with the options I wanted. Scamps are essentially unchanged, yet in 2019 they updated the doors.
Plus of the Scamp is overall loaded real weights are going to be about 700 or so pounds lighter. I am considering the Scamp because it can be towed with the Highlander Hybrid which can tow 3500 lbs. I would worry that the Escape would push that to the limits yet your Highlander would do great. I am also considering enlarging my garage door to fit the trailer, Scamps come in under 8ft (a standard garage size) while the Escape is over 8ft.
One final consideration, I just don’t like all the rivets on the Scamp. Not a deal breaker. Oh, the beauty of choice! Keep me posted on what you decide and I would enjoy staying in contact with a fellow Portlander.

[rdickens]

Ervin,

Nice post. Sounds like you and Paul might be kindred spirits. Should be fun!

One teeny tiny correction ....
Although you still have those little "snap cap" bumps, the Deluxe Scamps don't use rivets like the molded fiberglass Standard trailers. They use wood screws. Although I do know how to rivet, I really know wood screws.

If you want the Scamp16D-A swap of sofa/bunks for front dinette, you might try to talk to Wayne Pitlick at Scamp. I did a few other customizations on our trailer and he would be familiar with those (privacy glass in window over sink instead of curtains, deleted sink in smaller side bathroom, extra taillights, stuff like that.)

Wayne is both knowledgeable and flexible. If you want to explore a custom front dinette plus bunks option, he might understand and be willing to discuss.

BTW - Right after initial delivery, the local CAT scale (at a Pilot Flying J) said my main axle weight was 2000 lbs and the tongue weight was 240 lbs (with two 20lb propane bottles).

Best of luck to both of you!

Ray

[CPW]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Now, substitute Escape wherever the name Scamp occurs. Escape is the hands down winner.

Originally Posted by floyd

You can, but I just couldn't honestly say that.

I’ve not owned either of them but have towed both of them (owned by friends) and not just to move them to different campsites. In each case it was due to tow vehicle problems an the campsites had to be evacuated at a given time. And trust me, I fully understand about tow vehicle problems!
Frankly, I did not note much difference between either trailer as to how to the way they towed.
I have owned a Scamp (19) and I currently own an Escape (5.0TA). While I won’t go into details, and using the words of both individuals I have quoted, I can honestly say that hands down, I am much happier with my Escape than I ever was with the Scamp. YMMV!

[floyd]

Originally Posted by CPW

I’ve not owned either of them but have towed both of them (owned by friends) and not just to move them to different campsites. In each case it was due to tow vehicle problems an the campsites had to be evacuated at a given time. And trust me, I fully understand about tow vehicle problems!
Frankly, I did not note much difference between either trailer as to how to the way they towed.
I have owned a Scamp (19) and I currently own an Escape (5.0TA). While I won’t go into details, and using the words of both individuals I have quoted, I can honestly say that hands down, I am much happier with my Escape than I ever was with the Scamp. YMMV!

I didn't comment on which trailer would bring the most happiness to the owner, only on which is better behaved in terms of towing, comparing two bumper pull trailers and in this case anticipating a midsized SUV as the TV.


"Fifth wheel" trailers are quite another comparison altogether.


I have a friend who recently bought a 1994 Cadillac. He is VERY happy with it, No one in his right mind would claim that it handles well, in fact it is SCARY bad, but it is roomy and rides in magic carpet softness!

[CPW]

Originally Posted by floyd

I didn't comment on which trailer would bring the most happiness to the owner, only on which is better behaved in terms of towing, comparing two bumper pull trailers and in this case anticipating a midsized SUV as the TV.


"Fifth wheel" trailers are quite another comparison altogether.


I have a friend who recently bought a 1994 Cadillac. He is VERY happy with it, No one in his right mind would claim that it handles well, in fact it is SCARY bad, but it is roomy and rides in magic carpet softness!

You are correct about which you commented and I too commented on towing both trailers (Scamp 16/Escape 17), albeit with an F-150 rather than a midsized SUV. I stated that any difference was, in my opinion, negligible, so I disagree with your opinion that one is superior under tow to the other. When I was given the opportunity to tow an Oliver II, I can say I felt a noticeable difference resulting from its much heavier weight. And I in no way mentioned towing 5th wheel trailers although I do not experience much difference between the Scamp 19 I previously owned and my current Escape 5.0TA other than I wasn’t almost involved in a crash just after taking delivery of my Escape as I almost was with my Scamp, primarily because the people at ETI actually had connected the wires of the trailer’s brakes, whereas the people at Eveland’s failed to do so, even though they told me they had set the brake controller to “6” and had tested the brakes (just a little white lie).

Sorry if I offended you by using a portion of your quoted text and a portion of the other person’s quoted text in describing which brand brought me the most happiness, but the last time I checked using a portion of someone else’s text is not a violation of FGRV rules, and I understand that certain people have a burning love for their Scamps that I did not have (which is why I added YMMV).

FWIW, I wouldn’t own a Cadillac no matter how well or how badly it handles, because I personally perceive the brand as being the choice of the “my fecal matter doesn’t stink“ crowd. That, of course, doesn’t apply to everyone who drives a Cadillac, but the Cadillac name does have connotations of elitism, at least during the years when I was growing up. I simply prefer to drive something else. And if you are trying to compare the handling of your friend’s Cadillac and his happiness with it to the towabilty of one of the trailers in question, or with one’s preference for/happiness with a particular brand trailer, I would find any such comparison totally lacking merit and credibility; I would actually discount it as ridiculous ranting. I wouldn’t purchase a bass boat either, not because they might ride rough on water, but because fishing bores the Hell out of me. Again, YMMV! I also would never own another Scamp even though they tow as well as an Escape, a Trillium, or a Casita. My Scamp was the source of continual unhappiness for me. I do, however, respect your right to have your preferences and would hope that you would respect mine.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by CPW

You are correct about which you commented and I too commented on towing both trailers (Scamp 16/Escape 17), albeit with an F-150 rather than a midsized SUV. I stated that any difference was, in my opinion, negligible, so I disagree with your opinion that one is superior under tow to the other. When I was given the opportunity to tow an Oliver II, I can say I felt a noticeable difference resulting from its much heavier weight. And I in no way mentioned towing 5th wheel trailers although I do not experience much difference between the Scamp 19 I previously owned and my current Escape 5.0TA other than I wasn’t almost involved in a crash just after taking delivery of my Escape as I almost was with my Scamp, primarily because the people at ETI actually had connected the wires of the trailer’s brakes, whereas the people at Eveland’s failed to do so, even though they told me they had set the brake controller to “6” and had tested the brakes (just a little white lie).

Sorry if I offended you by using a portion of your quoted text and a portion of the other person’s quoted text in describing which brand brought me the most happiness, but the last time I checked using a portion of someone else’s text is not a violation of FGRV rules, and I understand that certain people have a burning love for their Scamps that I did not have (which is why I added YMMV).

FWIW, I wouldn’t own a Cadillac no matter how well or how badly it handles, because I personally perceive the brand as being the choice of the “my fecal matter doesn’t stink“ crowd. That, of course, doesn’t apply to everyone who drives a Cadillac, but the Cadillac name does have connotations of elitism, at least during the years when I was growing up. I simply prefer to drive something else. And if you are trying to compare the handling of your friend’s Cadillac and his happiness with it to the towabilty of one of the trailers in question, or with one’s preference for/happiness with a particular brand trailer, I would find any such comparison totally lacking merit and credibility; I would actually discount it as ridiculous ranting. I wouldn’t purchase a bass boat either, not because they might ride rough on water, but because fishing bores the Hell out of me. Again, YMMV! I also would never own another Scamp even though they tow as well as an Escape, a Trillium, or a Casita. My Scamp was the source of continual unhappiness for me. I do, however, respect your right to have your preferences and would hope that you would respect mine.

Certainly no offense taken,actually I didn't even notice the double quote.
My opinion on the handling issue has nothing whatsoever to do with any obsolete Elvis song, It was based on observation when towing.
Weight is a factor but it has little to do with road manners.


I do of course respect your right to an opinion,however derived,and will continue to enjoy our conversations and our cordial relationship.

[CPW]

Originally Posted by floyd

I didn't comment on which trailer would bring the most happiness to the owner, only on which is better behaved in terms of towing, comparing two bumper pull trailers and in this case anticipating a midsized SUV as the TV.

No, you didn’t comment on which trailer would bring the most happiness to the owner. You only implied that your friend was happy with his Cadillac which was horrible when it came to handling, after trying to State one trailer “behaved” better than the other under tow. If this wasn’t a covert implication, I truly don’t know what is.


"Fifth wheel" trailers are quite another comparison altogether.

I do not know what 5th wheel handling has to do with the main point. After describing my experiences towing the two trailers in question and stating that their towing behavior was basically similar, I commented that the Scamp 19 towing behavior was similar to the Escape 5.0, and did not in any way say they were similar to bumper pulls.


I have a friend who recently bought a 1994 Cadillac. He is VERY happy with it, No one in his right mind would claim that it handles well, in fact it is SCARY bad, but it is roomy and rides in magic carpet softness!

[QUOTE=floyd;781724]Certainly no offense taken,actually I didn't even notice the double quote. Point taken.
My opinion on the handling issue has nothing whatsoever to do with any obsolete Elvis song, Since I did not refer to Elvis, and I have never been a fan and do not listen to his recordings, I do not have any idea as to what you might be referring It was based on observation when towing. As was mine. Have you actually ever towed an Escape 17? I have. And I have towed a Scamp 16 also.
Weight is a factor but it has little to do with road manners.


I do of course respect your right to an opinion,however derived From “hands on” experience, also the reason why I despise Scamp, though I do hope nobody ever has to go through what I went through with them. I’d rather get a root canal or have an IRS audit, and will continue to enjoy our conversations and our cordial relationship. As will I. No animosity intended on my end. Just a bit of friendly disagreement. I always enjoy our trash talking

[floyd]

[QUOTE]"and I understand that certain people have a burning love for their Scamps that I did not have"[QUOTE]
Nobody doesn't like Elvis, Sara Lee, Or Scamp!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf2VYAtqRe0